-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
I didn't bash CR when it lowered the reliability rating, but knew to take it with a grain of salt given that the car is completely new, with completely new drivetrain technology, and it would be expected to go through some growing pains. I didn't have much of an issue with that.
But I have an issue with how they pick on Tesla and only Tesla in this case. As is being discussed in a thread with the same topic here, other manufacturers have far worse performing steering systems on the market (as substantiated by tests by Car and Driver, Motor Trend, and some Norwegian car magazine), and some (MB) even claim their car is self-driving, but CR is saying nothing about those other manufacturers.
That's where the bias and BS is.
RogerHScott
Active Member
Not to quibble (well, maybe to quibble a little
), if he (simply) didn't see it, what difference does it make what color the thing hedidn't see was?
Spot on. There is a lot of very bad stuff going on in the auto industry. For the focus to be on Tesla suggests reasons other than the substance and severity of the issues Tesla is experiencing.
Todd Burch
14-Year Member
I hope Elon mentions other car manufacturers in a rebuttal to CR and the media. Seriously, if the media is going to turn up the heat on Tesla, they should do it on other driver assistance packages as well. ESPECIALLY those that perform far worse.
Another point: This fatality had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with autosteer anyway. Total CR fail here.
Another point: This fatality had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with autosteer anyway. Total CR fail here.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
I don't know about you but I never give my unconditional "love" to any media corporation. In the real world, the media is a mixed bag. Sometimes I like a particular article, sometimes not. You really need to look at the content of any article and not just blindly accept the source. Is the article well reasoned and based on facts? This article from CR is just irrational ranting. The Model S review seemed to be based on careful analysis of facts.
I am not a blind cheerleader for anyone.
Agree, me either but when people make blanket general statements that CR as a media source is biased, unreliable and can't be trusted, that applies to the articles you agree with as well as the ones you don't. In the case of Tesla reviews many of the articles were written by the same person.
The only reason I bought a second MS was for AutoPilot (advertised functionality at the time). If they choose to disable or significantly neuter it; I'd like them to buy it back from me (the whole car, not just AP @ $2500)...
Well, releasing a grand, solemn pronouncement to the nation at 6:00 am so it gets picked up by as many outlets as possible is one way to attempt to stay relevant:
From 2013: "Consumer Reports is struggling to change as it faces new competition. Can it reverse this downward trend?
A memo to Consumer Reports top managers in February of 2012 was blunt: “CR is not growing revenues or subscribers, and we are losing money. We must right the ship.”
The ship began veering off course in 2011 after many blockbuster years....
The memo, titled “Next Steps,” outlined the nonprofit company’s goals, including: “Build a more compelling and differentiated brand,”
“We are currently losing money,” Bunin wrote his senior managers. “This is not acceptable going forward and we are going to have to reduce expenses. The lion’s share of our expenses are staff.”...
...many old-timers were slow to embrace online reader reviews. There was the attitude, ‘Users don’t know anything; we’re the experts.'”"
» ‘Change is hard’: Consumer Reports restructures to survive in the digital era JIMROMENESKO.COM
From 2013: "Consumer Reports is struggling to change as it faces new competition. Can it reverse this downward trend?
A memo to Consumer Reports top managers in February of 2012 was blunt: “CR is not growing revenues or subscribers, and we are losing money. We must right the ship.”
The ship began veering off course in 2011 after many blockbuster years....
The memo, titled “Next Steps,” outlined the nonprofit company’s goals, including: “Build a more compelling and differentiated brand,”
“We are currently losing money,” Bunin wrote his senior managers. “This is not acceptable going forward and we are going to have to reduce expenses. The lion’s share of our expenses are staff.”...
...many old-timers were slow to embrace online reader reviews. There was the attitude, ‘Users don’t know anything; we’re the experts.'”"
» ‘Change is hard’: Consumer Reports restructures to survive in the digital era JIMROMENESKO.COM
June 2015 - Consumer Reports appears to continue to lose staff:
"Consumer Reports has laid off 17 staffers this week, sources confirmed Wednesday. Six of those laid off were managers while 11 were members of the News Guild. The company’s editorial side has been in turmoil for several years now. It has gone through three editors in the past three years and has struggled to revamp its operations to focus more on digital."
Consumer Reports lays off 17 staffers - Talking Biz News
"Consumer Reports has laid off 17 staffers this week, sources confirmed Wednesday. Six of those laid off were managers while 11 were members of the News Guild. The company’s editorial side has been in turmoil for several years now. It has gone through three editors in the past three years and has struggled to revamp its operations to focus more on digital."
Consumer Reports lays off 17 staffers - Talking Biz News
By the way, I actually had a chance last week to replicate part of the fatal accident - quite by chance.
A tractor trailer pulled out in front of me from my left while I was doing 55 and the trailer was across - right in front of me - while the driver very slowly then turned left and pulled in front of me. While perpendicular to me, I sat back, ready to intervene, to see if the car would react. As happened in Florida - it did not. So, it certainly appears to be a limitation of the hardware, AND, a decision by the Mobileye to ignore an overhead sign false positive.
Autosteer continued to do its job, but TACC did not react. However, I was alert and paying attention and certainly able to take over and stop. This is my job as the driver of my car.
As one who was drawn to Model S by autopilot, I do not want Tesla to give an inch here. It is an amazing aid to long distance driving, but the bottom line of responsibility rests in the driver's seat.
A tractor trailer pulled out in front of me from my left while I was doing 55 and the trailer was across - right in front of me - while the driver very slowly then turned left and pulled in front of me. While perpendicular to me, I sat back, ready to intervene, to see if the car would react. As happened in Florida - it did not. So, it certainly appears to be a limitation of the hardware, AND, a decision by the Mobileye to ignore an overhead sign false positive.
Autosteer continued to do its job, but TACC did not react. However, I was alert and paying attention and certainly able to take over and stop. This is my job as the driver of my car.
As one who was drawn to Model S by autopilot, I do not want Tesla to give an inch here. It is an amazing aid to long distance driving, but the bottom line of responsibility rests in the driver's seat.
Consumer Reports does have a bias ... toward safety, reliability and value. That, along with independence and trust is their entire brand. That, in turn, makes them a very conservative organization and their recommendation is quite conservative as well. To me, that's perfectly acceptable. They are not news journalists and are acting as advocates in this situation. I disagree with their stance, but that's quite irrelevant
There are two components to their argument. The first is that the word Autopilot is misleading. While it's a meaningless distinction, perhaps, I would instead say that the general public misunderstands what the word autopilot actually means. This will be fought in the marketing, brand and risk arena and I predict that the word autopilot will be discontinued. There's too much risk of a misunderstanding based on a layman's understanding of the word.
The second is that it takes too long for someone to reengage with the task of driving if they become too complacent and that the auto steer component of the package encourages disengagement if there's no requirement to keep hands on the wheel. Because the failover mechanism is weak, this is deemed to be a fatal flaw. I'm suspicious of the hyperbole used with the 3-17 second claim in the study (which I haven't reviewed). Honestly, the 17s person must have been asleep.
We can all agree about what people should do but the reality is what people actually do. Tesla needs to either design for the reality or provide sufficient education to create a new reality. Otherwise this fantastic feature will be regulated out of existence.
There are two components to their argument. The first is that the word Autopilot is misleading. While it's a meaningless distinction, perhaps, I would instead say that the general public misunderstands what the word autopilot actually means. This will be fought in the marketing, brand and risk arena and I predict that the word autopilot will be discontinued. There's too much risk of a misunderstanding based on a layman's understanding of the word.
The second is that it takes too long for someone to reengage with the task of driving if they become too complacent and that the auto steer component of the package encourages disengagement if there's no requirement to keep hands on the wheel. Because the failover mechanism is weak, this is deemed to be a fatal flaw. I'm suspicious of the hyperbole used with the 3-17 second claim in the study (which I haven't reviewed). Honestly, the 17s person must have been asleep.
We can all agree about what people should do but the reality is what people actually do. Tesla needs to either design for the reality or provide sufficient education to create a new reality. Otherwise this fantastic feature will be regulated out of existence.
CuriousG
Active Member
Maybe CR feels after their last suggestion they have more influence than is believed.
Tesla to Fix Self-Parking Feature After Consumer Reports Raises Safety Concern
I specifically remember why Tesla is bothering with such nonsense when they have plenty of bugs within 7.1 to fix or improve yet they have a mass rollout for the firmware that addresses CR's needs.
Tesla to Fix Self-Parking Feature After Consumer Reports Raises Safety Concern
I specifically remember why Tesla is bothering with such nonsense when they have plenty of bugs within 7.1 to fix or improve yet they have a mass rollout for the firmware that addresses CR's needs.
Yes. Even though it seems irrelevant, changing the name of AP, requiring hands on the steering wheel at all times and better training for new owners are all inevitable. We may not like it but Tesla needs to get past this as soon as possible so we can all move forward with bigger and better things.
valkeriefire
Member
Consumer Reports acts like they are unbiased. My personal opinion is that when they hailed the Model S as "the best car ever tested", they received a ton of backlash from the big auto makers who depend upon CR to sell their cars for them. Once the management at CR got enough flack from traditional builders, they "recanted" their recommendation by saying the Model S was unreliable. Simple politics and lobbying influence. I believe CR is doing the same thing here. My opinion only. No facts to back it up, but I think theory is sound.
RogerHScott
Active Member
This was such an obvious fix I wasn't at all surprised to see them make it. I would hope it didn't actually take them very long.
I just wished they had gone one small step further and included the "ok, just go ahead and park now" button on the screen.
RogerHScott
Active Member
No mass market product can require training to be safe. Even requiring training to be useful or enjoyable likely dooms it to never
being mass market. Perhaps there'll be multiple "modes" of AP operation where the default requires no training and is very nanny-ish
but the more advanced modes, with (mandatory?) training, will allow significantly greater autonomy/inattentiveness.
being mass market. Perhaps there'll be multiple "modes" of AP operation where the default requires no training and is very nanny-ish
but the more advanced modes, with (mandatory?) training, will allow significantly greater autonomy/inattentiveness.
No... the the driver "didn't" see it. There was no implication that he couldn't were he watching.
My personal feeling is that people have to be adults and be responsible for their own conduct. Sadly that's not always the case, but if you start with the premise that people aren't responsible, then nothing good will ever get built.
RogerHScott
Active Member
Similar threads
