Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average

[dhanson865]

So that is the CR data on the Model S? I must be missing something. On a 1 to 5 scale the car averages 4.3, with solid 5's and 4's for major systems, but a 2 for one item "Body Integrity" and CR says the car is worse than average?What is "average"? I need to read the entire report, apparently.

No that isn't the CR data. CR doesn't divulge the raw data only the circles, omarsultan made up the 1 to 5 scale.

In reality the CR data is on another scale and you aren't told how wide the categories are.

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I'll quote Mr. Karesh here from The numbers behind Consumer Reports reliability ratings | TrueDelta

The numbers behind Consumer Reports’ reliability ratings

Posted on February 9, 2008 by Michael


In Consumer Reports, a 3 percent problem rate can count as “much worse than average” at the system level (electrical, cooling, etc.). That’s the lowest problem rate for which they’ll assign a solid black dot, if it also happens to be 45 percent worse than the average. In the case of a 3 percent black dot, the average problem rate for the system would have to be 2 percent or lower (145 percent of 2 percent being about 3 percent).


Guess what? For 2006 and 2007 models in the current CR results, the averages are ALL 2 percent or lower. So for these model years a problem rate of 3 percent or higher at the system level WILL earn the black dot.


For the entire car, the average problem rate for a 2007 is about 18 percent. (I say “about” because this was the average in previous years. I have not been able to find this figure for the current year.) So you can calculate (within a percent or two):

“much better than average” = problem rate under 10%
“better than average” = problem rate from 10% to 14.5%
“average” = problem rate between 14.5% and 21.5%
“worse than average” = problem rate between 21.5% and 26%
“much worse than average” = problem rate over 26%

There are a few ways you can look at this:


1. “Much better than average” cars have at most 40 percent of the problem rate of “much worse than average” cars. So in percentage terms, the spread is wide.


2. But what this translates to in absolute terms is the difference between one problem for every ten (or more) cars vs. one problem for every four (or fewer) cars.


3. In other words, nearly three in four owners can report no “serious” problems, and the model can still be “much worse than average.”


4. The difference between “average” and “much worse than average” is as small as 3.5 percent, about one problem for every 30 cars.


5. The ratings in CR would be more useful if they posted the above percentatges with their results. Even better, also provide the actual problem rate for each car–a number. But they do not, feeling that people are best served by giving them only red and black dots.


It’s like providing an idiot light instead of an actual instrument.


I started TrueDelta’s research because I wanted to see the actual numbers, not just the dots. And faster.

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excerpt from in Consumer Reports | TrueDelta

“Declining reliability” in Consumer Reports

Posted on October 17, 2007 by Michael


Each year Consumer Reports posts a list of models whose reliability has declined. But in some cases this “declining reliability” is a sign that they really didn’t have enough data a year ago. Many times with models that were introduced in the winter or spring they report a “better than average” result, only to report a year later that reliability has “declined.”

The source of the problem is that most of their surveys are returned in April, and at that time many of these late intro models have only been owned for a few weeks–or less. People haven’t had enough time to experience problems.

 

[TexasEV]

Ditto on each point in this post.

I am clear about the difference in performance and reliability ratings but most consumers will not discount the latter in light of the former. This is particularly true for the newer MX customers where safety is seen as equally or more important than performance. Like it or not, reliability is confounded with safety. (You may survive a crash yet be stranded on a lonely highway or dangerous area with a nonfunctional vehicle.)

This is a disturbing development and I hope results in significant changes at Tesla. They will need to do something about warranty and service offerings to put customers at ease -- ASAP. It is critical that this is sorted before MX deliveries are underway and the reliability rating needs to be upgraded long before M3 reservations are taken, IMO.

That stated, I'm neither selling stock (may buy more) nor withdrawing my reservation. However, I will consider Tesla's response before placing my order.

Let's try to keep this in perspective. Tesla still has the highest owner satisfaction score of any car, so these reliability issues don't seem to be bothering most owners too much. The only categories in which the Model S received less than "very good" for the most recent year are related to the body and the audio system. That's the squeaks and rattles, door handles, etc. No one is being stranded on the side of the road, or rather it's not happening with greater frequency than an ICE would break down.

What do you propose Tesla do about their warranty and service offering ASAP? You can't do much better than 8 year, unlimited mile drive unit warranty. Service issues are being taken care of. In areas where the service centers are busy, new ones are being built (at least in the U.S.) Sure there may be individual complaints, which you will read here, but how do you think Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction scores? I don't think you should have any hesitation about placing your order for a Model X. Don't forget the big picture-- it's an EV. I'll take a few squeaks any day to drive an EV rather than an ICE.

 

[omarsultan]

No that isn't the CR data. CR doesn't divulge the raw data only the circles, omarsultan made up the 1 to 5 scale.

Yes, I converted to the numeric values from the original data (#45) because the math made no sense to me. To be honest, the math still makes no sense to me, even with @dhanson865's post--I don't see how you get a composite score lower than any of the component scores. I'll update the post to clarify these are not CR numbers.

 

[roblab]

I totaled my S 85 on April 1.... no kidding and I'm glad because the value has gone down so sharply. I got a lot from the insurance company. Having said that I loved the car but there were a lot of issues with it. There should not be so many issues with a car that has very few moving parts versus an ice. Once they make a model year that has good nav, works well with my phone, allows 3rd party apps, goes as far and as fast as they claim (quarter mile)... and doesn't make all sorts of squeaks and rattles then I'll buy another one. I have no idea when that will be

Mine has no squeaks, rattles, works well with my garage, bluetooth works, the apps on the car work, the downloads come every few weeks. It does not belch fumes, vibrate, make noise, drip oil, use gas, or cost anything for fuel. Ask Exxon Mobil about that one. Check on how much we pay to protect our foreign oil, or for shipping it or refining it. Check on the damage done by fracking and oil sands processing.

I have no issues with my car. It beats every car in my town in Napa Valley. It is not the most expensive. I don't take it to the track, as I like to drive it. I drove over 80,000 miles in the last 3 years, with no maintenance, no service required. Things that were not right were fixed -- for free.

The Nav obviously works, but as with everything else, you have to know its limitations. Everybody else's GPS leads them down wrong trails at times, I know. I tell everyone "don't use GPS to drive to my house".

And on top of that, it's the only electric car that delivers so much. But that may not be as important as a car that allows 3rd party apps. Sounds like Toyota might be a better choice for you. I'll keep my Tesla, thanks.

I guess that makes me a fan boy, right? Unless I complain, I must have drunk the kool aid.

 

[GSP]

"Worse than average" can sound concerning, but it is important to understand what this really means. Take a minute to step back and understand the context.

1) The reliability of automobiles in general has been steadily increasing over the decades. The industry has taken it to a level were the average is quite high for modern cars. There also is less variation from model to model or unit to unit, and this is as important as the higher average.

2) For any population (of cars, people, toasters, ardvarks, ...whatever) about half are going to be below average. Being below the average is not a big deal. Now if you (or your car, toaster, whatever) are at the minus six sigma level, then that might be considered a problem, but not just being "below average."

Because of this I have long questioned the wisdom of CR excluding about half of the cars available from being recommended, just on the one metric of reliability. There are many other considerations when comparing cars and deciding which one to buy. I would not let a below average reliability rating stop me from buying the best car in the world.

However, I do hope Tesla takes this to heart, buckles down, and prioritizes quality improvements. If I were Elon I would hire one of the best quality gurus alive, one that was also passionate about Tesla's mission. This would be the best insurance possible for Tesla's future growth. Perhaps he already has done so.

GSP

 

[tmyl21]

@omarsultan Just curious if you have had any issues and if so what they have been with your particular MS. I ask b/c my MS was built 2k after yours going by your listed VIN and well just curious as we are in a close build cycle?

@ Scott Jones Hi Scott. Again sorry to hear about the situation and result with your MS. What was the VIN of your MS that was deemed a total loss. I have been curious to ask since I would like to know the version of TPMS that are in the wheels I purchased from you....thanks hope all is well!

 

[Nubo]

My guess is that the industry average score (that's what Tesla's overall is compared to) has risen as Tesla's has dropped a little. I read recently that German, US and especially Korean cars have improved quality recently to the point that they are better than most Japanese models.

Then in order for CR Tesla predominantly "excellent" or "above average" "dots" to jive with the "poor" overall rating "dot", it seems we need to understand that most other cars are even MORE above average. Is CR based in Lake Wobegone? ;-)

 

[chateauoaks]

Wait until the Model X comes out with its Falcon Wing doors that don't close...

 

[brucet999]

Then in order for CR Tesla predominantly "excellent" or "above average" "dots" to jive with the "poor" overall rating "dot", it seems we need to understand that most other cars are even MORE above average. Is CR based in Lake Wobegone? ;-)

Please do not conflate the category ratings with the overall reliability ratting. Categories are not tied to average scores. Overall is tied to industry average.

 

[bwa]

I'm over 3,000 miles and five months with the car. Zero issues other than occasional losses of 3G internet connectivity which can usually be fixed by rebooting the system. By this time, with virtually every other high performance car I've ever owned, the car had been back to the shop for serious immobilizing issues.

Buy the Model S.

I think it's entirely possible the latest update from Consumer Reports and the quoted poster are both correct, not just in the specific case, but in the general case. CR looks at longevity over time, and the above poster has a more recent model. Tesla has been shaking out problems, and there are probably less now than in the general case of the 1,400 CR looked at, and CR tends to look over more time.

I think both are valid considerations.

I also think that it's worth buying a Tesla and it has more to be fixed about it.

 

[Beryl]

Let's try to keep this in perspective. Tesla still has the highest owner satisfaction score of any car, so these reliability issues don't seem to be bothering most owners too much. The only categories in which the Model S received less than "very good" for the most recent year are related to the body and the audio system. That's the squeaks and rattles, door handles, etc. No one is being stranded on the side of the road, or rather it's not happening with greater frequency than an ICE would break down.

Excellent point and one of the reasons I'm still planning on a Tesla MX. However.....

Oh yeah, and my car wouldn't start once for 30 mins ! Finally did and then worked- but left me stranded for a half hour. Now I am always wondering if I will be stuck somewhere.

The idea of being stuck somewhere in Texas with a vehicle that can't be easily serviced by AAA or the like gives me pause. I'll need to design more elaborate backup plans.

IMHO the only way for Tesla to diffuse this situation is with a comprehensive extended warranty option for new and CPO cars without a $200 per incident deductible. Otherwise few if any would want to own a Model S out of warranty and that will affect resale values substantially.

It would help make this consumer a little more comfortable. A "better than AAA" 24 hour roadside assistance offering would also help. I'll be looking into what Tesla offers there.

Some of you placed little importance on the squeaks and rattles, but for me, paying close to if not above $100K for a car, I'd be embarrassed having to explain to people why those issues exist in the first place. Rattles and squeaks in a $14,000 Chevy is expected, not in a $100,000 luxury car. The sounds actually appear louder due to lack of an ICE.

I currently drive a squeaking 5 year old Chevy with less than 21K miles and hope not to experience this with a $120K Tesla.

 

[TexasEV]

Excellent point and one of the reasons I'm still planning on a Tesla MX. However.....

The idea of being stuck somewhere in Texas with a vehicle that can't be easily serviced by AAA or the like gives me pause. I'll need to design more elaborate backup plans.

It would help make this consumer a little more comfortable. A "better than AAA" 24 hour roadside assistance offering would also help. I'll be looking into what Tesla offers there.

Tesla has 24 hr roadside assistance. Search the forum for people who have needed to use it-- there are only good reports. You don't need any "backup plans".

 

[James Anders]

Frankly, I never put too much stock in CR's automotive reviews. That being said I do have quality concerns and these give me pause. If I was rich perhaps the ongoing quality issues wouldn't bother me as much. I buy the car and sell it or trade it in on another one. I wouldn't care too much about resale value dropping over quality issues. But I'm not rich.

What frustrates me is that many of these quality issues are ongoing after a really long time and after supposed engineering fixes were issued.

Examples?

Well the self-presenting door handles for one. I can certainly understand how a problem could crop up on the initial production run. These handles aren't rocket engines. There's no real excuse for this problem still cropping up on new vehicles. None whatsoever. It's either a fundamental design problem that could have been fixed or a supplier quality issue that should have been fixed. OR if it couldn't be fixed then they should have gotten rid of that feature and gone back to manual door handles. By the way, I am design engineer with many years of electro-mechanical design experience.

Likewise with the ongoing issues with motor drive units, contactors, etc.

Again - let me state that I totally understand teething pains with the initial vehicles. But sheesh, Tesla has had years and many thousands of vehicles to iron out these niggling little quality issues.

If it was up to me I wouldn't have spent a dime on Autopilot, Self-Driving stuff until ALL ongoing quality issues where truly solved.

I'm not bashing Tesla. I was hoping to buy a Tesla soon. But it scares me (and I was scared before CR dropped their recommendation) that I could spend a lot of my money on a car that after 4 years has lost it's resale value due to issues of quality. And yes...major kudos to Tesla service for going out of their way to fix vehicles under warranty.

Think of it this way. Look at the number of parts in a comparable ICE car vs the Tesla Model S. Look at ALL the parts in a V8 engine, 8 speed automatic trans, emission systems, exhaust system, cooling system. Look at all that complexity and yet somehow these ICE car companies maintain pretty good levels of quality. With the vast simplification of the Tesla design there should be very little to go wrong. But yet on certain fundamental, basic systems there seems to be a disconnect.

I really was hoping that by the time I was ready to buy all these quality issues would have been resolved. Sigh....

I don't care so much about those quality issues regarding visual appearance, or even squeaks and rattles that don't originate from the drive train.

Perhaps Tesla needs to step up and say look we will always cover any functional, drivability failure not caused by abuse. I don't know....

 

[scott jones]

Mine has no squeaks, rattles, works well with my garage, bluetooth works, the apps on the car work, the downloads come every few weeks. It does not belch fumes, vibrate, make noise, drip oil, use gas, or cost anything for fuel. Ask Exxon Mobil about that one. Check on how much we pay to protect our foreign oil, or for shipping it or refining it. Check on the damage done by fracking and oil sands processing.

I have no issues with my car. It beats every car in my town in Napa Valley. It is not the most expensive. I don't take it to the track, as I like to drive it. I drove over 80,000 miles in the last 3 years, with no maintenance, no service required. Things that were not right were fixed -- for free.

The Nav obviously works, but as with everything else, you have to know its limitations. Everybody else's GPS leads them down wrong trails at times, I know. I tell everyone "don't use GPS to drive to my house".

And on top of that, it's the only electric car that delivers so much. But that may not be as important as a car that allows 3rd party apps. Sounds like Toyota might be a better choice for you. I'll keep my Tesla, thanks.

I guess that makes me a fan boy, right? Unless I complain, I must have drunk the kool aid.

Im glad your S has been great for you, but I wasn't attacking anyone's opinion, yet you are being rude, presumptuous and sanctimonious to me!

i said I loved the car but xxxx is what it would take for to buy another.... Which I will do when it happens. There's nothing wrong with having a checklist of wants before you spend $100,000 on a car. And don't talk down to me as if a "Toyota might be a better choice for me." I also didn't call anybody a fan boy or say anyone has drank the cool aid. So don't misinterpret my text and start ripping on me because you're in a bad mood because didn't get the toy out of the cereal box this morning

 

[Caligula]

Frankly, I never put too much stock in CR's automotive reviews. That being said I do have quality concerns and these give me pause. If I was rich perhaps the ongoing quality issues wouldn't bother me as much. I buy the car and sell it or trade it in on another one. I wouldn't care too much about resale value dropping over quality issues. But I'm not rich.

What frustrates me is that many of these quality issues are ongoing after a really long time and after supposed engineering fixes were issued.

Examples?

Well the self-presenting door handles for one. I can certainly understand how a problem could crop up on the initial production run. These handles aren't rocket engines. There's no real excuse for this problem still cropping up on new vehicles. None whatsoever. It's either a fundamental design problem that could have been fixed or a supplier quality issue that should have been fixed. OR if it couldn't be fixed then they should have gotten rid of that feature and gone back to manual door handles. By the way, I am design engineer with many years of electro-mechanical design experience.

Likewise with the ongoing issues with motor drive units, contactors, etc.

Again - let me state that I totally understand teething pains with the initial vehicles. But sheesh, Tesla has had years and many thousands of vehicles to iron out these niggling little quality issues.

If it was up to me I wouldn't have spent a dime on Autopilot, Self-Driving stuff until ALL ongoing quality issues where truly solved.

I'm not bashing Tesla. I was hoping to buy a Tesla soon. But it scares me (and I was scared before CR dropped their recommendation) that I could spend a lot of my money on a car that after 4 years has lost it's resale value due to issues of quality. And yes...major kudos to Tesla service for going out of their way to fix vehicles under warranty.

Think of it this way. Look at the number of parts in a comparable ICE car vs the Tesla Model S. Look at ALL the parts in a V8 engine, 8 speed automatic trans, emission systems, exhaust system, cooling system. Look at all that complexity and yet somehow these ICE car companies maintain pretty good levels of quality. With the vast simplification of the Tesla design there should be very little to go wrong. But yet on certain fundamental, basic systems there seems to be a disconnect.

I really was hoping that by the time I was ready to buy all these quality issues would have been resolved. Sigh....

I know its a small consolation, however you can always order Autopilot after you purchase the vehicle. All the hardware is already there, they just need to activate the software. You just happen to get a discount on the price if you order it before the car is produced. That said, theres nothing stopping you from only paying for AP once its been refined to your satisfaction. This is exactly what I did with my recent order.

 

[James Anders]

I think you may have misunderstood. I meant that Tesla shouldn't have spent any money or effort on Autopilot and other non-essential stuff until all these silly quality issues were fixed.

If Tesla can't solve simple self-presenting door handle problems why should anyone trust Autopilot. Imagine wanting to show off Autopilot to a friend and the damn door handles don't work.

-J

 

[nwdiver]

I think you may have misunderstood. I meant that Tesla shouldn't have spent any money or effort on Autopilot and other non-essential stuff until all these silly quality issues were fixed.

Those are two very different areas... Autopilot is mostly software... not a lot that a software engineer can do to improve the manufacturing process... Tesla needs a diverse software team and it would be a huge mistake to disband them to divert $$$ to improve other areas... they've gotta do something to keep busy

That's kinda like criticizing the Navy for ill-equipped soldiers...

 

[dhanson865]

Yes, I converted to the numeric values from the original data (#45) because the math made no sense to me. To be honest, the math still makes no sense to me, even with @dhanson865's post--I don't see how you get a composite score lower than any of the component scores. I'll update the post to clarify these are not CR numbers.

Well I don't claim to agree or understand their numbers either. I gave up on CR car data back about 10 years ago when truedelta started up.

Data is a little thin on some cars but CR has that issue also. At least at TD they own up to it and put an asterisk by the data if it comes from an undersized data set (with the dislaimer "* Small sample size, only visible to members.") And since membership is free that means data that is less reliable is only shown to people that take the trouble to look for it.

It's not perfect but the more people that sign up and submit data good or bad the more it averages out and you end up with an open data set not a hidden half red circle that you can't figure out what the data behind it was.

 

[BillC]

Have had our MS for 18 months, 14,000 miles. No issues. Interesting that CR also said that despite the issues, 98% of owners were still satisfied and liked the car. Remember in the propulsion system there are a reported 10,000 moving parts in an ICE that can fail, but only 18 in a Tesla.

 

[James Anders]

I realize that. But Tesla certainly invested in software engineers and made Autopilot a major initiative and that cost money. My point is that I would have rather seen that money spent on initial quality issues.

The quality issue is indeed separate and distinct from Autopilot. But would you agree introducing and promoting Autopilot is made more challenging when ongoing quality problems plague the company?

And please...can we agree that personal anecdotal "I have no problems at all" posts are really missing the point. I'm sure there are numerous owners without problems just as I am sure there are many new owners with problems that should have been put to bed a long time ago.