Consumer Reports reliability of Model S - worse than average

[cwerdna]

I think you may have misunderstood. I meant that Tesla shouldn't have spent any money or effort on Autopilot and other non-essential stuff until all these silly quality issues were fixed.

If Tesla can't solve simple self-presenting door handle problems why should anyone trust Autopilot. Imagine wanting to show off Autopilot to a friend and the damn door handles don't work.

Well, unfortunately, if you haven't noticed, Elon seems to mostly focus on hype and thus resulting media attention and discussion instead of on rock solid reliability. The former gets attention. Reliability? Maybe not as much.

Examples: insane mode, ludicrous mode, "infinite mile" (w/cavets) DU warranty, free Supercharging for life, "$35K" Model 3, Superchargers, falcon wing doors, AWD, robotic charging snake, autopilot, profitable quarter (once, so far), etc.

Sure, performance, range and DC FC network are unmatched by all other BEVs, but still. Oh... and nevermind that TSLA since it's been publicly traded has accumulated net losses of over $1.3 billion.

 

[Tony8489]

As a prospective owner who had had first test drive a couple of weeks ago, I have a sense of deja vu. I was a proud owner of the first SAAB Turbo in 1978, the first production turbo after Porsche's in 1976. The turbo itself did not fail, but the stress and heat caused engine and transmission failures starting in 1981. The local dealer was not all that competent in repairs, so there were repeat failures. After protracted battles and 160 days of downtime in one year, including a small claims court case, I finally gave up and sold the SAAB in early 1983.

I would never assuming cutting edge technology like Tesla would have the reliability of conventional cars. So I've been researching the issue, knew about the drive units in particular, and the Consumer Reports results do not surprise me in the slightest. The analysis in this thread notes that 5% defect rate would get you a poor score. And unfortunately we don't know whether the drive unit issue has been resolved from a design standpoint because the newer cars don't have enough mileage yet.

Nonetheless my gut feeling is that Model S is more reliable than cutting edge European cars of the 1970's. And SAAB North America made zero effort to assist/intervene in any way with my reliability or dealer problems. Buying the car back at age 3 years for Blue Book Value? I would have jumped at that offer, even as trade-in for a new SAAB 900 Turbo, as I did enjoy having a very advanced car for its time.

So from what I read here, Tesla's proactive attitude about service is the opposite of what I experienced with SAAB and goes a long way toward explaining the loyalty of the owners despite the reliability issues.

I agree with the poster above that Elon is much more interested in continuing to push the technology envelope than in rock solid reliability. Thus I have no interest in Model X vs. Model S. The latter now has AWD to get me to skiing with better range and the falcon wings do look like a huge red flag. And maybe I don't order a sunroof, air suspension or the 90 batteries with silicon in the anodes. Maybe none of these things will have problems, but I'm inclined to be content with the core EV technology and not expose myself to reliability problems on optional items.

 

[David_Cary]

Going in for my first service today at 5 months, 7k miles. Loose armrest.

Worse than average - sure. Horrible - not really. Should be as convenient as an oil change.

If you think of just the inconvenience, I'm sure that avoiding oil changes more than compensates for the "extra" service visits.

 

[Oyvind.H]

So from what I read here, Tesla's proactive attitude about service is the opposite of what I experienced with SAAB and goes a long way toward explaining the loyalty of the owners despite the reliability issues.

In the beginning here in Norway I could e-mail Tesla about an issue and get an appointment the same or next week. I felt well taken care of as an early (norwegian adopter). Nowadays the wait is close to half a year.
Serious issues are handled quicker though.

 

[sandpiper]

None of this really surprises me. A car is a horrendously complex machine. I've been an engineer too long to imagine that it's possible to get everything right on the first go. And unfortunately a lot of niggling issues take time to come out. Tesla benefits from the fact that EVs are mechanically very simple, but so many of the other things - from sunroofs to suspension components are no different than with any other car.

Personally, I'm still astounded that there haven't been more problems. It speaks to a very aggressive effort to produce a quality machine. I'm 100% sure that what's coming off the line now is vastly better than the early cars in all of these little areas.

My big concern is that I suspect that we'll see a lot of these small issues cropping up as the early cars get to be 3-5 years old. And Tesla's reputation will suffer. Fortunately there's relatively few of the early ones out there.

 

[davidc18]

We really are enjoying the car but I have no intention of owning it once the original warranty expires.

You do realize that CR surveyed 1,400 owners right? Whatever selection/owner bias you talk about would affect other car manufacturers as well.

I think the takeaway from this report is to highly consider ensuring the car is always under warranty.

IMHO the only way for Tesla to diffuse this situation is with a comprehensive extended warranty option for new and CPO cars without a $200 per incident deductible. Otherwise few if any would want to own a Model S out of warranty and that will affect resale values substantially.

 

[Jim MacInnes]

My model S just came back from its first service and they took care of a couple of minor issues during this process. Musk and his team have worked very hard to produce a high quality vehicle while at the same time changing the way we view transportation alternatives. They are still early in the game and deserve a huge amount of credit for their accomplishments thus far. The new AP is also just amazing notwithstanding it is still in Beta and has a few punch list items to correct. Crowd sourced information feedback should allow Tesla engineers to make that happen pretty quickly. Looking at the big picture I am very willing to accept the relatively few and minor flaws that I have experienced in order to be part of getting off of oil, increasing transportation efficiency, improving safety and cleaning up our energy supply. From my perspective, that is what it is all about.

 

[Spidy]

Mine has no squeaks, rattles, works well with my garage, bluetooth works, the apps on the car work, the downloads come every few weeks. It does not belch fumes, vibrate, make noise, drip oil, use gas, or cost anything for fuel. Ask Exxon Mobil about that one. Check on how much we pay to protect our foreign oil, or for shipping it or refining it. Check on the damage done by fracking and oil sands processing.

I have no issues with my car. It beats every car in my town in Napa Valley. It is not the most expensive. I don't take it to the track, as I like to drive it. I drove over 80,000 miles in the last 3 years, with no maintenance, no service required. Things that were not right were fixed -- for free.

The Nav obviously works, but as with everything else, you have to know its limitations. Everybody else's GPS leads them down wrong trails at times, I know. I tell everyone "don't use GPS to drive to my house".

And on top of that, it's the only electric car that delivers so much. But that may not be as important as a car that allows 3rd party apps. Sounds like Toyota might be a better choice for you. I'll keep my Tesla, thanks.

I guess that makes me a fan boy, right? Unless I complain, I must have drunk the kool aid.

A bit You can't just say no maintenance or service required and then in the next sentence say things that were not right were fixed.

 

[Electricfan]

I just ordered a new Model S yesterday. This thread scares me.

Sweet! There's a person out there with timing worse than mine! I bought a 2013 Model S right before they added power folding mirrors. Then I got a 2015 right before they added the 90 kwh battery. Well, that might have been good, as I didn't have to decide whether or not to take the plunge, and I'm happy with the range of my 85 kwh battery, and how fast it charges at a supercharger. I can't wait to take a long trip with auto-pilot.

If you thought you'd get a car that would never spend a day in the shop, you made an error. But otherwise you can relax. Tesla takes excellent care of its customers. You'll love your car, trust me.

 

[crmatson]

I have to admit that reliability/maintenance concerns give me pause as I consider keeping my Model X reservation vs getting a Model S.
There are no service centers in my state.
The closest service center is in Kansas City, about 200 miles from Des Moines.

 

[Blvr888]

I have to admit that reliability/maintenance concerns give me pause as I consider keeping my Model X reservation vs getting a Model S.
There are no service centers in my state.
The closest service center is in Kansas City, about 200 miles from Des Moines.

Just have a look how the time spans between entries in this thread evolved over time. This gives a fairly well indication on how TMC improved the build quality since first deliveries:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10398-Model-S-Technical-Mechanical-Issues/page265

 

[Super_Popular]

Saw the report on NBC Nightly News last night and the Today Show this am......Tesla was mentioned more than others.......not good.

 

[jerry33]

Leaving out firmware complaints, I've had:

One charger/charge port replacement

One triangle window adjustment

One UMC replacement

(all the above were early on)

Proactive door handle replacements

One driver's seat replacement (not a defect, the result of hundreds of people sitting on it)

Wheel alignments

Approaching 60k miles, I'd say that my car is as reliable as any I've had.

 

[Merrill]

I just ordered a new Model S yesterday. This thread scares me.

Please realize that on this forum you have a small sample of the total of owners and most of us this are on this forum are the vocal ones. I have had my 2013 Model S for 2.5 years and minimal problems all of which have been resolved, always get a replacement vehicle to drive. Total cost to me $0 so if you look at the big picture and once you own a Tesla you will never go back to anything else.

 

[crmatson]

Please realize that on this forum you have a small sample of the total of owners and most of us this are on this forum are the vocal ones. I have had my 2013 Model S for 2.5 years and minimal problems all of which have been resolved, always get a replacement vehicle to drive. Total cost to me $0 so if you look at the big picture and once you own a Tesla you will never go back to anything else.

Would it be so painless if you lived 200 miles (or more) from the closest service center?

 

[tomas]

I really think this drive unit thing is what is scaring people the most, and I also believe it is a huge misunderstanding that Tesla could clear up by releasing some clarifying information. Tesla made the corporate decision that they would pull, replace, and re-manufacture drive units with faults (however minor). Many cars have had a drive unit replaced, and some have had multiple replacements. That starts the mind racing towards engine replacement, which is the single most costly maintenance event for an ICE. Not so fast! Only Tesla knows how costly those faults actually were to fix. If they have data regarding the most common DU issues, and eventual cost for Service Center repairs (or maybe even post-warranty DU swap pricing if they elect to stay with central repairs), they could nip the DU phobia in the bud. That plus the extended warranty and continuous improvement of DUs could make this a non issue.

 

[JST]

I really think this drive unit thing is what is scaring people the most, and I also believe it is a huge misunderstanding that Tesla could clear up by releasing some clarifying information. Tesla made the corporate decision that they would pull, replace, and re-manufacture drive units with faults (however minor). Many cars have had a drive unit replaced, and some have had multiple replacements. That starts the mind racing towards engine replacement, which is the single most costly maintenance event for an ICE. Not so fast! Only Tesla knows how costly those faults actually were to fix. If they have data regarding the most common DU issues, and eventual cost for Service Center repairs (or maybe even post-warranty DU swap pricing if they elect to stay with central repairs), they could nip the DU phobia in the bud. That plus the extended warranty and continuous improvement of DUs could make this a non issue.

It could.

Or it might not.

Honestly, I have a lot of concerns about owning my car after the warranty kicks, but this is by far the biggest one. Could Tesla address it by releasing detailed cost and failure data? Maybe. I don't think they will. I continue to suspect that the extension of the drivetrain warranty was a way for them to try and buy some time to deal with this issue while they figured out how to do a lasting fix.

 

[Beryl]

Hope Tesla releases something to the press soon. A comment acknowledging the concerns and a commitment to turn it around would go a long way to allay this consumer and stockholder angst.

 

[trils0n]

Here is a comparison of the first (2014) CR reliability survey with the new (2015) one. I created it from the images here and here. I used 2013 and 2014 "Model Years" because there wasn't data for 2015 in the first survey, and 2012 data wasn't displayed in the images I found. Red lines indicate areas that got worse between the initial survey in 2014 and the new survey just released. Green lines are improvements.

EDIT: Just noticed in my image I missed a red line for decrease in 2013 cars Paint/Trim category. Removed initial image and uploaded new, corrected one.

It appears that while initial quality is improving (overall improvement in reliability between "model year"), that CR is concerned about the decrease in same year reliability over time. The Drive System (which I where I assume Drive Unit replacements fall under) seems to be the category that gets worse as cars age. EDIT: Drive System category appears to also be more heavily weighted in CR's system. This seems to be the first real data about the drive unit issues.

Another EDIT: The red lines are also a way of tracking problems that develop, or increase in frequency over time. Green lines could be initial issues that were repaired, and stayed repaired, or just decreased in frequency.

 

[Merrill]

Would it be so painless if you lived 200 miles (or more) from the closest service center?

I understand the distance issue, and driving that far to get service would be a pain, I guess what I was saying was in response to maxdrive10 and his comment of being scared after reading this thread.