Continual supercharging and battery life

[gnuarm]

That is why I think the in-car "Beta Trip Planner" is idiotic, and I won't let it try to pick my Supercharger stops anymore. It seems to have this burning desire to make charge stops as long as possible to try to skip over other Supercharger stops whenever it can, which is a horrible waste of time and feels really uncomfortably inconvenient. It will very frequently recommend 50+ minutes and charging to nearly 100% to skip over a Supercharger and arrive with 7% remaining. That is dangerous nonsense.

I guess the Beta Trip Planner is something new I haven't tried? My preference would be for fewer, longer stops. While they may take a bit longer I would be able to take a break and have a bite to eat rather than just killing time in the car. Even if there is a suggestion I don't like, it is nice to have choices or if nothing else, to see that the other options are not really choices.

I expect to be heading cross country again in December and will see what I can work out. I've read that I can plan a trip in Google and upload it to the car. Not sure how to do that as yet.

 

[TexasEV]

I think you're referring to Tesloop, the car service on the west coast. Those cars were supercharged every day to 100% for the 200,000 miles. They certainly knew what they were doing, in fact it was their business model, until Tesla stopped allowing new cars from being supercharged for commercial purposes. That's just not a normal situation. You can search TMC for lots more details about Tesloop if you're interested, but such a situation does not apply to people like yourself taking normal road trips even frequently.

If a car has been supercharged so often that it could damage the battery, Tesla will lower the peak charging rate a little to prevent damage from happening. This mostly happened to the 90 kWh batteries. Tesla has a blog post about it and said it affects less than 5% of the fleet. The lower peak rate would only matter if you're starting with a low state of charge, otherwise you wouldn't be getting that peak rate anyway, and would only add a few minutes to a long supercharging session. The lower peak rate would still be higher than what I got in my new S60 five years ago. Really it's not something you need to be concerned about.

 

[selfbp]

I can hardly believe this. I can't imagine myself living in a house, rented or owned, or an apartment where I couldn't figure out how to charge overnight instead of driving over somewhere and sitting, and sitting, and sitting, to finally unplugging and driving home again, only to repeat several times a week or month. My time is worth more than that, and I'm retired. I also have figured out how electricity works, how to tighten screws on an outlet, how to run plastic pipe for conduit, how to dig a ditch, etc. Supercharging is one resource. Getting educated is another.

Well I live on the top floor in an apartment, with the parking lot further from the building than I am able to hook the charging cable. I’ve considered getting an RV extension cord for my charger and use the A/C unit outlets outside, but I also am hesitant to put my charger out there where people are constantly walking over it. Along with the fact I park distant from the other vehicles near the building to keep people from door dinging my car, plus I am only here for another 6 months, I don't mind to stop at the chargers for 30 min a week on the way home.

Digging the ditch wouldn't be allowed here, but hooking up a 220, or cutting a PVC is more than easy enough as I have completed it all before.

 

[gnuarm]

Well I live on the top floor in an apartment, with the parking lot further from the building than I am able to hook the charging cable. I’ve considered getting an RV extension cord for my charger and use the A/C unit outlets outside, but I also am hesitant to put my charger out there where people are constantly walking over it. Along with the fact I park distant from the other vehicles near the building to keep people from door dinging my car, plus I am only here for another 6 months, I don't mind to stop at the chargers for 30 min a week on the way home.

Digging the ditch wouldn't be allowed here, but hooking up a 220, or cutting a PVC is more than easy enough as I have completed it all before.

This is one of the situations where the apartment owners will need to step in and recognize the need for charging. But this thread is about continued Supercharging and I seriously doubt apartment owners would want Superchargers in their parking lot. Maybe, dunno.

Bjørn Nyland released a video where he talks about the charge rate limits and he shows noticeable charge time increases in his experience. He has graphs showing the charge rate mostly being restricted in the first 50% which is more of an impact if you follow the navigator recommendations of charging often for short times. Each of those charges will be around 20% slower. No, it won't add huge amounts of time to your trip, but there are straws and camels and the point is telling people to not even think about it seems disingenuous. I know if I were buying a used Tesla and the seller disclosed that the charge rate were already restricted I would not offer nearly as much for that car.

 

[jboy210]

This is one of the situations where the apartment owners will need to step in and recognize the need for charging. But this thread is about continued Supercharging and I seriously doubt apartment owners would want Superchargers in their parking lot. Maybe, dunno.

I would think many apartment dwellers would love supercharging in their complex. Come home, plug in for 10 minutes to top off and always be "full" without having to drive more than a few feet!

Apartment and condo complexes by me already have Level 2 chargers and usually enforce a 2-3 hour charge limit.

 

[gnuarm]

I would think many apartment dwellers would love supercharging in their complex. Come home, plug in for 10 minutes to top off and always be "full" without having to drive more than a few feet!

Apartment and condo complexes by me already have Level 2 chargers and usually enforce a 2-3 hour charge limit.

Do you know how they enforce a short time limit? Are these pay chargers or free? I've yet to find a pay charger anywhere. But then I don't frequent the non-Tesla chargers unless I'm desperate. I think there is a pay Chademo in Leesburg and the J-1772 next to it is likely pay as well. There are chargers you just can't use unless you are a customer such as the Ford dealer in Frederick (at least according to the web) while a Ford dealer in Warranton is free.

The charging world is pretty crazy for now. I really can't defend the charging hassles even for a Tesla to my friends who ask. At least it is better with a Tesla than with other cars like GM where my inquiry about charging the Bolt resulted in a reply that was essentially "charging happens".

 

[selfbp]

This is one of the situations where the apartment owners will need to step in and recognize the need for charging. But this thread is about continued Supercharging and I seriously doubt apartment owners would want Superchargers in their parking lot. Maybe, dunno.

Bjørn Nyland released a video where he talks about the charge rate limits and he shows noticeable charge time increases in his experience. He has graphs showing the charge rate mostly being restricted in the first 50% which is more of an impact if you follow the navigator recommendations of charging often for short times. Each of those charges will be around 20% slower. No, it won't add huge amounts of time to your trip, but there are straws and camels and the point is telling people to not even think about it seems disingenuous. I know if I were buying a used Tesla and the seller disclosed that the charge rate were already restricted I would not offer nearly as much for that car.

I agree. Property owners in should highly consider something along the lines of a rent-an-outlet style system which provides a key to a 220v outlet near green painted parking spaces (or similar concept) and charge a few $ extra to provide access to the charging spots. I know for a fact with more people getting the M3 that this is going to be a much larger issue than previously with the S. Also a good hook for the Property owners to reel potential tenants with EVs by touting "EV Friendly parking/charging'".

 

[David99]

Supercharging stresses the battery more than normal AC charging. That's a fact. Tesloop's highest mileage car has the third battery. Massive degradation is cell imbalance from constant supercharging without off time. Supercharging once or twice a week is totally fine. Doing every day several times is not good.
Urban supercharger have reduced power and are easier on the battery.

I have supercharged 1200 times in almost 5 years at 183k miles. My degradation is aprox 10% which seems average. Use supercharger if you need them. If you don't need them and have an AC alternative that is convenient, use that first.

 

[selfbp]

Supercharging stresses the battery more than normal AC charging. That's a fact. Tesloop's highest mileage car has the third battery. Massive degradation is cell imbalance from constant supercharging without off time. Supercharging once or twice a week is totally fine. Doing every day several times is not good.
Urban supercharger have reduced power and are easier on the battery.

I have supercharged 1200 times in almost 5 years at 183k miles. My degradation is aprox 10% which seems average. Use supercharger if you need them. If you don't need them and have an AC alternative that is convenient, use that first.

Wow 1200 times is insane, what situation has enabled that much need of supercharging??

 

[DCGOO]

Wow 1200 times is insane, what situation has enabled that much need of supercharging??

I am guessing driving 183,000 miles in five years. 1200 does not sound that excessive to me.

 

[David99]

Wow 1200 times is insane, what situation has enabled that much need of supercharging??

It's just the amount of miles I drive. 60%-70% of my driving is longer distances where I need supercharging.

 

[jboy210]

Do you know how they enforce a short time limit? Are these pay chargers or free? I've yet to find a pay charger anywhere. But then I don't frequent the non-Tesla chargers unless I'm desperate. I think there is a pay Chademo in Leesburg and the J-1772 next to it is likely pay as well. There are chargers you just can't use unless you are a customer such as the Ford dealer in Frederick (at least according to the web) while a Ford dealer in Warranton is free.

The charging world is pretty crazy for now. I really can't defend the charging hassles even for a Tesla to my friends who ask. At least it is better with a Tesla than with other cars like GM where my inquiry about charging the Bolt resulted in a reply that was essentially "charging happens".

The chargers have a timer on them. I do not know if they charge for them.

They are the same chargers (ChargePoint) at the local grocery stores have and those have an hourly rate. At the store we go to, the first hour is $1.00, second and 3rd hours are $5.00 each. Shuts off after 3 hours. But Chargepoint also has the chargers down at Google and other employers, and those are free to employees. And on the Chargepoint's site it says the rate is set by the property owner, which squares because other grocery stores and McDonald's charge different rates.

The local mall has multiple sets of chargers. The ones from Volta are free and sponsored by Nissan, they have big Leaf ads on them. And surprise, they are usually full. The Blink stations charge a fee and there is usually a spot open.

Other malls have different charging companies.

 

[gnuarm]

Urban supercharger have reduced power and are easier on the battery.

I just read about urban Superchargers. Is there a way to tell if Superchargers are urban or not? I was at a charger today in Chattanooga with two other vehicles and none of us were getting a full 100 kW. The MPH ranged from 100, 150 and 200 when typical at Superchargers is 300+. The lady with the 100 kW charging seemed to have a slightly cold battery. I had driven mine around a bit to warm it up as it was only charging at 30 kW when I first hooked up. I guess even the 150 MPH rate I was getting is only 50 kW, so maybe that was due to cold as well even though the regeneration rate was no longer limited. Then the third buy might have been limited by the charger if it was an urban unit. I mentioned to each of the other two people that the chargers were in pairs and sharing a pair gives you a lower rate. But I think with the urban chargers you get the same slightly lower 75 kW rate regardless.

 

[David99]

I just read about urban Superchargers. Is there a way to tell if Superchargers are urban or not? I was at a charger today in Chattanooga with two other vehicles and none of us were getting a full 100 kW. The MPH ranged from 100, 150 and 200 when typical at Superchargers is 300+. The lady with the 100 kW charging seemed to have a slightly cold battery. I had driven mine around a bit to warm it up as it was only charging at 30 kW when I first hooked up. I guess even the 150 MPH rate I was getting is only 50 kW, so maybe that was due to cold as well even though the regeneration rate was no longer limited. Then the third buy might have been limited by the charger if it was an urban unit. I mentioned to each of the other two people that the chargers were in pairs and sharing a pair gives you a lower rate. But I think with the urban chargers you get the same slightly lower 75 kW rate regardless.

Yes the charging stations look different. Normal Superchargers have the large pedestals with the large cutout where the cable is inside. The urban type is a smaller, solid pedestal where the cable is coming out of the side and wraps around.

The charge rate can vary a lot depending on so many factors. When all factors are ideal, a normal supercharger can deliver 120 kW and the urban type 72 kW.

Normal:

Urban:

 

[TaoJones]

I can hardly believe this. I can't imagine myself living in a house, rented or owned, or an apartment where I couldn't figure out how to charge overnight instead of driving over somewhere and sitting, and sitting, and sitting, to finally unplugging and driving home again, only to repeat several times a week or month. My time is worth more than that, and I'm retired. I also have figured out how electricity works, how to tighten screws on an outlet, how to run plastic pipe for conduit, how to dig a ditch, etc. Supercharging is one resource. Getting educated is another.

Imagine harder.

98% of my charging with the first S was via SCs. 3.7% battery degradation after ~63K miles, I would add. Now, in fairness to your point, easily half that was on the road with 3K-14K road trips over periods of days or weeks. However, for the in-town charging, it was all of a single weekly visit on the way home from Costco. By coincidence, that SC's host property offered a very tasty spinach salad, so I'd go inside, have lunch or dinner, and get some work done via their wifi (or read a latest book or magazine - yes, I still use print media) at the same time. Beats pumping gas after a 20-25 minute wait at the Costco, I have to say. Even for the significant savings per gallon. Not at all sad to miss those fume-ridden episodes, actually.

So as one of the GUM (great unwashed masses) who has no garage (I live on a floaty thing and they would certainly arrest me if I built a floating garage adjacent), I can say with considerable confidence that if one is near an SC, it's not the end of the world to use it to charge a few times a month while in town. Even in an overrun area such as coastal CA. Just don't go at peak times - same as any sane person doesn't get gas at Costco on a Friday or Sunday afternoon or before a holiday.

At the time I bought the first car, there was only one SC in the entire county that happened to be 3 miles from my most frequent client. I still didn't place the order until I got it in writing from Tesla to back up what the Owner Advisor said ("Unless and until you get home or office charging (I assured him neither were even years away), you've got carte blanche to use the SCs - ad libitum, even."). Yes, an English bloke provided reassurance in both colloquial French *and* Latin. Memorable conversation. He then said they were going to open up more SCs very soon. I didn't believe him. Within 6 weeks, 2 SCs within 10 miles went live. Go figure.

 

[Naonak]

Silicon anode packs will degrade faster than the non-silicon packs when DCFC (Supercharging and CHADeMo included). There is an internal kWh counter in the BMS that will degrade your charge rate the more you use DCFC. There is some speculation that it exists in the non-silicon packs, but no significant evidence has surfaced to indicate it. The Tesloop situation is all on non-silicon packs.

 

[gnuarm]

Imagine harder.

98% of my charging with the first S was via SCs. 3.7% battery degradation after ~63K miles, I would add. Now, in fairness to your point, easily half that was on the road with 3K-14K road trips over periods of days or weeks. However, for the in-town charging, it was all of a single weekly visit on the way home from Costco. By coincidence, that SC's host property offered a very tasty spinach salad, so I'd go inside, have lunch or dinner, and get some work done via their wifi (or read a latest book or magazine - yes, I still use print media) at the same time. Beats pumping gas after a 20-25 minute wait at the Costco, I have to say. Even for the significant savings per gallon. Not at all sad to miss those fume-ridden episodes, actually.

It would be nice if Costco would get on board and install chargers even if just destination chargers. I do most of my shopping there.

So as one of the GUM (great unwashed masses) who has no garage (I live on a floaty thing and they would certainly arrest me if I built a floating garage adjacent), I can say with considerable confidence that if one is near an SC, it's not the end of the world to use it to charge a few times a month while in town. Even in an overrun area such as coastal CA. Just don't go at peak times - same as any sane person doesn't get gas at Costco on a Friday or Sunday afternoon or before a holiday.

You are lucky to be where you are. Most places don't have Supercharger facilities, even larger places like Frederick, MD.

At the time I bought the first car, there was only one SC in the entire county that happened to be 3 miles from my most frequent client. I still didn't place the order until I got it in writing from Tesla to back up what the Owner Advisor said ("Unless and until you get home or office charging (I assured him neither were even years away), you've got carte blanche to use the SCs - ad libitum, even."). Yes, an English bloke provided reassurance in both colloquial French *and* Latin. Memorable conversation. He then said they were going to open up more SCs very soon. I didn't believe him. Within 6 weeks, 2 SCs within 10 miles went live. Go figure.

Again, lucky. Even most well populated cities only have a single bank of Superchargers. Sometimes the locations are a bit unusual. Hagerstown has a Supercharger while Frederick doesn't likely because they are only 25 miles apart. Then there is a Supercharger just 20 miles south in Martinsburg which is much smaller than both. Worse, it's at a Sheetz. Go figure.

 

[David99]

Silicon anode packs will degrade faster than the non-silicon packs when DCFC (Supercharging and CHADeMo included). There is an internal kWh counter in the BMS that will degrade your charge rate the more you use DCFC. There is some speculation that it exists in the non-silicon packs, but no significant evidence has surfaced to indicate it. The Tesloop situation is all on non-silicon packs.

I guess there is no evidence that there is a counter that will kind of 'flip a switch' and reduce the charge rate in the old 85 packs, but it sure does charge much slower than it did when it was now on a supercharger. But that might be the effect of aging in general.

I thought Tesloop's problem child was a 90 battery that needed replacement twice. Most concerning was the second battery replacement after only 80k miles where it showed 20% degradation. I find it kind of ironic how Tesloop is mentioned how the Tesla battery holds up so well, but then looking at what actually happened, it had to be replaced twice.

 

[TaoJones]

It would be nice if Costco would get on board and install chargers even if just destination chargers. I do most of my shopping there.



You are lucky to be where you are. Most places don't have Supercharger facilities, even larger places like Frederick, MD.




Again, lucky. Even most well populated cities only have a single bank of Superchargers. Sometimes the locations are a bit unusual. Hagerstown has a Supercharger while Frederick doesn't likely because they are only 25 miles apart. Then there is a Supercharger just 20 miles south in Martinsburg which is much smaller than both. Worse, it's at a Sheetz. Go figure.

One of the larger Costcos here had L2 chargers and then pulled them out. A couple of years later, a new Costco was built down the road, et voila, L2 chargers again. Doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason.

Maybe an email campaign to the local manager at your end and to their district level might get the wheels turning.

As for the lucky part, I don’t know if it’s so much luck as stubbornness and being willing to pay a premium to continue to visit here part of the year. The value proposition does continue to erode.

However, for as long as California continues to lead the charge, as it were, and by a large margin, it probably makes sense to stick around.

 

[jboy210]

It would be nice if Costco would get on board and install chargers even if just destination chargers. I do most of my shopping there.

it seems like Tesla and Target have a thing. A lot of Targets have SuperChargers. There are two Targets with Superchargers within 20 miles of me.

But even in the Upper Midwest I see that there installing Superchargers (and Level 2 and perhaps CCS fast) at Targets.