EVNow
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$15/kwh and 3kg/kwh. So, can their raw material cost be $5/kg. Possible if they are not using Cobalt.
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Converted Audi A2 goes 605 km (378mi) without charging
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$15/kwh and 3kg/kwh. So, can their raw material cost be $5/kg. Possible if they are not using Cobalt.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I think the most reliable numbers *so far* are these: http://www.lekker-mobil.com/images/stories/pdf/technische-Daten-Audi-A2.pdf
(I posted them earlier in this thread already.)
The weight mentioned there is 350kg for 98.8 kWh. For whatever reason, the small company is not yet giving out official numbers, and it seems a lot of people with 'half-knowledge' are trying to fill the void, and numbers are often tossed around without sufficient specification as to what they refer to. So even for those numbers, "most reliable" does not mean "true". Regarding articles like the one above, one has to be very careful, even if they refer to the COO of DBM. It may be just a minor detail, but the record drive was from Munich to Berlin, not from Berlin to Munich. At least according to other articles. Although the car was also driven in the other direction.
The company says more official, independent tests will follow, and it seems we'll have to wait for those.
(I posted them earlier in this thread already.)
The weight mentioned there is 350kg for 98.8 kWh. For whatever reason, the small company is not yet giving out official numbers, and it seems a lot of people with 'half-knowledge' are trying to fill the void, and numbers are often tossed around without sufficient specification as to what they refer to. So even for those numbers, "most reliable" does not mean "true". Regarding articles like the one above, one has to be very careful, even if they refer to the COO of DBM. It may be just a minor detail, but the record drive was from Munich to Berlin, not from Berlin to Munich. At least according to other articles. Although the car was also driven in the other direction.
The company says more official, independent tests will follow, and it seems we'll have to wait for those.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
This is interesting regarding price. The Google translation of this page has a representative from the forklift company that has been using the DBM battery for 2 years saying that the battery is much more expensive but will pay for itself over time. http://www.cleanthinking.de/kolibiri-akku-praxiseinsatz-papstar-dbm-technologie/8407/
I don't know what they are comparing it to but this doesn't quite fall in line with their pricing claims.
I don't know what they are comparing it to but this doesn't quite fall in line with their pricing claims.
Norbert
TSLA will win
I think the comparison was to the 'Lead-batteries' they were using before.
EDIT: However, you'll need to take into account that the price claims are for mass-production. Producing them in small quantities may be much more expensive, and not comparable.
EDIT: However, you'll need to take into account that the price claims are for mass-production. Producing them in small quantities may be much more expensive, and not comparable.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
True, but at the prices they are claiming, less than $2K for 100 kwh, that's cheaper than deep cycle lead acid!
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
A poster over on DIY did some sleuthing and found the individual in the video who did the Audi's for DBM is a fellow converter who's been doing this for years with other batteries. http://www.evalbum.com/2602 http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.le-mobile.de/&ei=XXHKTaqRC5GOvQO03NnjBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.le-mobile.de/%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au%26prmd%3Divns
Norbert
TSLA will win
Norbert
TSLA will win
Following links above, there is a 6/14/2011 interview with Mirko Hannemann, in german, at Elektroauto: „500 Kilometer sind eigentlich kein Ding“ | Mobilität- Frankfurter Rundschau
The first part only is translated at Electric Vehicles UK
Still no specifics about the battery, but some points from the interview:
- MH says they rejected an offer from Samsung for 600 Mill. Euro., saying they didn't want the technology to be blocked by being used in a specific area only.
- He financed development out of his own pocket (15 Million).
- Meanwhile, Daimler's head of research has invited him to participate in a national forum which advises the german government
- MH claims their battery is better than anything currently in use, regarding size, performance (or power), stability and reliability/strength under harsh conditions
- It would take about a year to get mass production "on its legs". (Apparently there are no definite plans yet.) This would be for a battery that allows building a car with 300 km (188 miles) range at a price no more expensive than a usual car.
--- the remaining points are from the not-yet-translated part ---
- The battery is definitely his (or their) own development.
- He studied a variety of subjects including applied physics, but didn't complete a degree as he started making money with various projects
- The interview mentions the fire destroying the berlin-record car is now known to have been arson, however there is no idea of who it could have been.
- a south german car manufacturer approached them, and they are going to deliver a black box a for examination of the battery's parameters, as a beginning.
- being asked whether the black box is guaranteed not to infringe on other's patents, he says they continued development where others have stopped, and that no one else would have know-how in their area
- that project is about racing, a good area to prove performance, operation under harsh conditions, and fast-charging abilities, for a new kind of series, the first car to be shown at IAA in September.
- they are getting a strong response from power - and grid companies, for using the battery for energy storage at the industrial level, and he says in that area much more money is to be made with the same storage capacity
- they have an opportunity to use their battery in the grid, and thinks they could install 300 MW next year. Mechanical systems would be too slow to respond to changes (switching time) in the grid in real time. Only battery technology could do this, They are currently building a 10 MW storage, claiming the largest battery storage in Europe.
The first part only is translated at Electric Vehicles UK
Still no specifics about the battery, but some points from the interview:
- MH says they rejected an offer from Samsung for 600 Mill. Euro., saying they didn't want the technology to be blocked by being used in a specific area only.
- He financed development out of his own pocket (15 Million).
- Meanwhile, Daimler's head of research has invited him to participate in a national forum which advises the german government
- MH claims their battery is better than anything currently in use, regarding size, performance (or power), stability and reliability/strength under harsh conditions
- It would take about a year to get mass production "on its legs". (Apparently there are no definite plans yet.) This would be for a battery that allows building a car with 300 km (188 miles) range at a price no more expensive than a usual car.
--- the remaining points are from the not-yet-translated part ---
- The battery is definitely his (or their) own development.
- He studied a variety of subjects including applied physics, but didn't complete a degree as he started making money with various projects
- The interview mentions the fire destroying the berlin-record car is now known to have been arson, however there is no idea of who it could have been.
- a south german car manufacturer approached them, and they are going to deliver a black box a for examination of the battery's parameters, as a beginning.
- being asked whether the black box is guaranteed not to infringe on other's patents, he says they continued development where others have stopped, and that no one else would have know-how in their area
- that project is about racing, a good area to prove performance, operation under harsh conditions, and fast-charging abilities, for a new kind of series, the first car to be shown at IAA in September.
- they are getting a strong response from power - and grid companies, for using the battery for energy storage at the industrial level, and he says in that area much more money is to be made with the same storage capacity
- they have an opportunity to use their battery in the grid, and thinks they could install 300 MW next year. Mechanical systems would be too slow to respond to changes (switching time) in the grid in real time. Only battery technology could do this, They are currently building a 10 MW storage, claiming the largest battery storage in Europe.
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Norbert
TSLA will win
From an 6/23/2011 article, also linked above, at DBM Energy baut mit der Kolibri Power Systems AG ein neues Management-Team auf » CleanThinking.de
Translated a few points:
- DBM Energy might be history soon: Kolibri Power Systems AG will be a publically traded company
- Aside from Mirko Hannemann, the management will include a former member of management at Daimler, Helmuth von Grolmann, and a former director of communications at BMW, Richard Gaul, and lawyer Richard Leitermann. (Not sure how exactly to translate these titles.) All of them said to be known and respected names.
- The article says these decisions will be made public in the next few days, and that the team around MH is now playing in the major league.
- Criticism of DBM is said to be gone, some of the DBM critics made a 180.
- There is also said to be a project justifying the name "home storage".
----------
Not sure what to make of all this, but it seems DBM and/or Kolibri Power Systems AG will be a proper company.
Translated a few points:
- DBM Energy might be history soon: Kolibri Power Systems AG will be a publically traded company
- Aside from Mirko Hannemann, the management will include a former member of management at Daimler, Helmuth von Grolmann, and a former director of communications at BMW, Richard Gaul, and lawyer Richard Leitermann. (Not sure how exactly to translate these titles.) All of them said to be known and respected names.
- The article says these decisions will be made public in the next few days, and that the team around MH is now playing in the major league.
- Criticism of DBM is said to be gone, some of the DBM critics made a 180.
- There is also said to be a project justifying the name "home storage".
----------
Not sure what to make of all this, but it seems DBM and/or Kolibri Power Systems AG will be a proper company.
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Norbert
TSLA will win
Lots of new material. Here are two videos (for those who speak german or want to get an impression) with two parts of an extensive interview with Mirko Hannemann:
video Standort Berlin mit Mirko Hannemann, Teil 1 - tv berlin, standort berlin, peter brinkmann - videos TV Berlin Video
video Standort Berlin mit Mirko Hannemann, Teil 2 - tv berlin, standort berlin, peter brinkmann - videos TV Berlin Video
What I found interesting is when he mentioned that they have been getting several requests for black boxes for testing. (Apparently they are sometimes expected to send these black boxes at their own expense and/or at other conditions which perhaps he doesn't find agreeable.) Being asked "what if" someone like Daimler, Audi, BMW, an american, or chinese [manufacturer], would make an offer of cooperation, he replied something like 'anytime, we are ready'.
video Standort Berlin mit Mirko Hannemann, Teil 1 - tv berlin, standort berlin, peter brinkmann - videos TV Berlin Video
video Standort Berlin mit Mirko Hannemann, Teil 2 - tv berlin, standort berlin, peter brinkmann - videos TV Berlin Video
What I found interesting is when he mentioned that they have been getting several requests for black boxes for testing. (Apparently they are sometimes expected to send these black boxes at their own expense and/or at other conditions which perhaps he doesn't find agreeable.) Being asked "what if" someone like Daimler, Audi, BMW, an american, or chinese [manufacturer], would make an offer of cooperation, he replied something like 'anytime, we are ready'.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Norbert
TSLA will win
I'm not getting the impression that he would move the company to the US, but he seems open to working with US companies.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Another interview (6/10/2011): DBM Energy-Chef Mirko Hannemann: «Unsere Technologie kann so schlecht nicht sein» | autogazette.de das Auto Magazin
Mirko Hannemann intends to make another "test"-drive, in 2011, aiming at 1000 kilometers (625 miles).
The interview also contains a huge claim about the size of future projects in large-scale energy storage (for the grid, I guess). Maybe he gets a kick out of making claims in a way that everyone finds them almost impossible to believe (although they are of the kind which we will eventually be able to verify).
Mirko Hannemann intends to make another "test"-drive, in 2011, aiming at 1000 kilometers (625 miles).
The interview also contains a huge claim about the size of future projects in large-scale energy storage (for the grid, I guess). Maybe he gets a kick out of making claims in a way that everyone finds them almost impossible to believe (although they are of the kind which we will eventually be able to verify).
Norbert
TSLA will win
Yet another article appeared just today, and I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else yet: DBM-Energy: Weitere Nagelprobe für Kolibri-Akkus | autogazette.de das Auto Magazin
It's about the three test vehicles (Audi A2) delivered to Next Energy, a research center of the german utility EWE, for a 15,000 km test which will last until September. The project lead's first impression was "There seems to be only one thing wrong with the car: I had to return it after 4 days." (Apparently he is not one of the test drivers.)
They are said to have a range of about 210 km (131 miles) with a battery capacity of 40 kWh. MH said they could have delivered double the capacity, however Next Energy was content with that amount, more comparable to other EVs.
It's about the three test vehicles (Audi A2) delivered to Next Energy, a research center of the german utility EWE, for a 15,000 km test which will last until September. The project lead's first impression was "There seems to be only one thing wrong with the car: I had to return it after 4 days." (Apparently he is not one of the test drivers.)
They are said to have a range of about 210 km (131 miles) with a battery capacity of 40 kWh. MH said they could have delivered double the capacity, however Next Energy was content with that amount, more comparable to other EVs.
I'm surprised that 40 kWh only gets 131 miles, but maybe that is real miles, not wishful thinking miles.
These guys are in the right place at the right time in Germany now. With the abandoning of the nuclear programme, grid storage is going to be hot property for the next decade.
These guys are in the right place at the right time in Germany now. With the abandoning of the nuclear programme, grid storage is going to be hot property for the next decade.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
That's 305 wh/mi, which seems realistic depending on the vehicle and driving conditions. At 200 wh/mi it's a 200 mile car, if they allow full use of the capacity. Under promise and over deliver is a good plan.
Norbert
TSLA will win
When looking at these numbers, one needs to keep in mind that the Audi A2 has an exceptional air drag coefficient, and weighs less than 1000 kg, being built with aluminium. The A2 stopped production in 2005 (too expensive for a small car), but there are plans to produce a not-quite-as-light version in 2015: 2015 Audi A2 Preview - Deep Dive - Automobile Magazine
I've heard the 2005 version achieved 80 mpg, ICE without hybrid tricks, so it should not be that difficult for a conversion to achieve a high efficiency.
I've heard the 2005 version achieved 80 mpg, ICE without hybrid tricks, so it should not be that difficult for a conversion to achieve a high efficiency.
^ was going to say the same, but you saved me the bother :smile:
In fact there was a 100 mpg 1.2l diesel, but Germany kept this one for itself :biggrin: A 1.4 TDI blasted past me on the motorway tonight doing at least 90.
I was always impressed by the A2, but it was ahead of its time sadly. I never thought ten years ago that it would be blazing a trail for mass market EVs though. (Can we allow ourselves that thought now?)
In fact there was a 100 mpg 1.2l diesel, but Germany kept this one for itself :biggrin: A 1.4 TDI blasted past me on the motorway tonight doing at least 90.
I was always impressed by the A2, but it was ahead of its time sadly. I never thought ten years ago that it would be blazing a trail for mass market EVs though. (Can we allow ourselves that thought now?)