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Converter 400V 3x16A > 240V 40A

Discussion in 'Technical' started by emq, May 4, 2011.

  1. emq

    emq Member

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    #1 emq, May 4, 2011
    Last edited: May 8, 2011
    Today i tested a Converter 3x400V > 1 x 240V 40A 50/60Hz.

    Test with 2000W 230V Induktive cooking unit: 240V Output Sinus Wave, better than the inlet from Grid. The Inductive Unit is a perfect Load with sinusoidal Curent.

    Test with Mitsubishi IMiev: External Charger 10A, 11 % THDI, perfect.

    Test with Smart Electric Drive, (Tesla-tecnology) does not accept this Sorce.

    Test with Teslarodster with 10A 240V Cable: the same, Grid Synch Fault.

    Test with ACPropulsion 110-240V 10-80A >Input 3x15A 400V, Output excellent up to this Converter Limit 40A 240V

    The Output Voltage is throgh PEM related with the 3phase Input, with Starpoint conected to earth, The Output has a symetric Voltage about 140V to Earth.

    Has sombody an idea what is the nogo criteria.

    The Transformer in Teslomotors Shop/Service Zürich, was floting secondary Voltage and charged after conecting one secondary Side to earth, but i canot do that, becaus the Converter Output is nonisolatet.

    Next step is find an Nissan Leaf to test.

    Secand next, trie with an AC Propulsion Charger 240V 80A, should be the same like Teslas.

    Dezember 2009 i had a conference call with the engineering manager charging systems , and European responsible peaple for Tecnics, I could ask them for support.
     
  2. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Is this your own design or something commercially sourced?

    Well impressed you are trying this.
     
  3. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    The Leaf's on-board charger can only draw 16A (@240V) max, so your device won't provide much benefit to Leaf owners.
    (I imagine at a site with 400Vx3 there would likely be a 240V low current outlet as well, right?)

    It is a shame that the Roadster faults since it could conceivably get 40A which would be handy when there is no other source like that.
     
  4. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Do you have a link with technical specs on this converter? 40 Amps is a little disappointing isn't it? How much current can you pull from one leg of a three-phase without schieflast?
     
  5. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    40 Amps is great out of the common 3P 16A outlets, especially if the converter is small.
     
  6. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Certainly, if that's the case.
     
  7. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Is the math something like this:
    400Vx16A=6.4kW per phase... *3phases=19.2kW
    19.2kW/230V=83amps theoretically possible...?
    So 40amps max does seem a bit low. But I think I am missing some constraint when going from 3 phase to 1 phase?
    Is it fundamentally limited to around 40amps, or is that a limit based on some components used in the adapter?
     
  8. emq

    emq Member

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    #8 emq, May 4, 2011
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
    "Is this your own design or something commercially sourced?" , ""40 Amps is great out of the common 3P 16A outlets, especially if the converter is small."

    It is a standard frequency inverter, designd in germany, with a common 6 puls rectifier, a state of the art inverter with 100% sinus output. 33kg, IP 54, 524 mm 386 mm, 203 mm, about 4200 sFr.- , in CH in stock.

    Leaf Test: The goal is find out, how does Leaf handel this special grid configuration, if teslamotors are the only denieing this special grid configuration, is it designed or a special effect.

    I am aware the leaf has a chademo Quick charge too, like iMiev Family. Since Monday 2. May, EKZ Utility in grater Zürich, has a ABB Chademo Quick charger for iMiev SOC 0-80% about 30min.

    "So 40amps max does seem a bit low"

    Primäry 400V x Sqare Root 3 >1.73 x 40A > 11kVA,
    Secondary 240V x 40A > 9,600 kVA
    Effiency > 9,6 / 11 = 0,87. State of the art > 0,97

    This Unit is not designed for single phase load, so im happy with 0.87 effiency.

    The manufactorer said: they have no experienc with this application, it should work about 90 %, just try! They offered to sell new units, a small Unit for pilot test, if ok, a 40A or 50A unit for final test, if test units are in original condition, after my test, i get the money back.
     
  9. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    The math is 400V x 16A x (square root 3) = 11 kW

    For complete accuracy you'd multiply by the power factor but I've assumed 1.

    Then divide 11kW by 230V for single phase current, although it's not 100% efficient hence 40A.
     
  10. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Yeah, I thought there was some factor when going from 3 phase to 1, but I forgot the details.
    So around 48amps theoretical max, and so 40A is not too bad taking into account some safety margin.
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    The pf is probably more like 0.9 in reality.
     
  12. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    What size is it? Will it fit in the trunk?
     
  13. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    Here are the quoted dimension;

    Not sure whether that will fit in the trunk... I also wonder what the cooling requirements are when in use.
     
  14. AndrewBissell

    AndrewBissell Member

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    Thanks. Sorry I missed those details in the earlier post.
     
  15. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Today I heard about a Belgium guy who made a 3x32A -> 1x70A converter and is using it with his HPC to charge his Roadster at 70A.

    I didn't get the chance to look at it, but from what I heard it weighs 85kg, so taking it with you isn't a real option, but it could be something for installing a high capacity HPC in Europe.
     
  16. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Any idea on cost?
     
  17. emq

    emq Member

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    "a Belgium guy who made a 3x32A -> 1x70A converter"

    I am intressed to get in contact with this guy, to find out more about this product, perhaps a inspiration.
     
  18. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    His current prototype was around 4k (Euro), so pretty expensive.

    He had it with him on the racetrack and was charging his Roadster with it, but I completely forgot to stop by and check it out.

    I'll try to get his contact details, since it would be a great solution for a lot of EU Roadster drivers.
     
  19. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    4k euro is a good price for such a device, similar products with that power level are normally 10k...
     
  20. emq

    emq Member

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    #20 emq, May 8, 2011
    Last edited: May 14, 2011
    I tested my Converter 3x400V > 1 x 240V 40A 50/60Hz. with ACPropulsion 110-240V 10-80A >Input 3x15A 400V, Output, works excellent up to this Converter Limit 40A 240V

    Test with Smart Electric Drive, (Tesla-tecnology) does not accept this Sorce.
    Test with Teslarodster with 10A 240V Cable: the same, Grid Synch Fault.

    I asked the charging manager of teslamotors by email for support
     

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