Convincing a skeptic

[Barklikeadog]

Hello, I've been hanging around the Tesla forums for a few years now. I'm pretty much a skeptic, it seems for every positive of owning a Tesla, there are several negatives. That is just my personal view, I'm not here to attack you. Every car company has plenty of negatives. I prefer to buy battery powered items over ICE despite their limitations, but a large item like an auto is in a different category. I don't see battery powered autos as the future, just the next step. I'm also not on some agenda to save the earth. Less pollution is great, but I'm not going to make significant sacrifices for it. At least not while people like Dicaprio are flying around the world 200 times in a private jet and lecturing us peons about what we are doing wrong...

Anyway, I just wanted to start a conversation to see how my questions/issues with Tesla could be addressed...

1. Elon Musk: I know you look at him like a God... and he is a brilliant guy. But too often he seems to promise the moon(or mars) when more of his attention could be put towards quality, service, making deadlines. People want an affordable car and they get unnecessary Xwing doors.
Q: Will he address issues that bother customers or will he keep chasing down the next big thing?

2. Service: I can't help but be shocked at how long some of you wait in line for service on $100,000 cars.. weeks, months... that is just unacceptable. And they plan to put hundreds of thousands more autos on the road... at this point it doesn't seem like you can build service centers fast enough.
Q: How can this possibly be resolved when Tesla owners multiply?

3. I never buy a 1st gen car of any kind, they are always full of problems. Traditional automakers seem to work those out for the 2nd year of production.
Q: Are these problems lasting over several model years? Is that information even available?

4. I own a jeep, a supercrew pickup, and a BMW 3series. I have been towed one time in 25 years because of an alternator going out. It was replaced within 24 hours. I see so many posts here about cars being taken to service centers, sitting for weeks. I plan to replace the BMW in the next few years, Tesla is an option.
Q: I want 1st class service with minimal wait time, my dealers have always taken good care of me, how many years out am I from getting this with Tesla?

5. I'm not going to argue the autopilot/summon issue. I see it from both sides. People will misuse it. The media will jump all over it. On the other hand software can error as well. A sensor that cannot see above the front bumper or detect bicycles is troubling. I see Tesla drivers on videos for unveiling cars where they set autopilot and take their hands off the wheel, I read about test drives where the salesman does the same. But my question is abit unique...
Q: I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but when a driver is an accident and Tesla releases to the public what the driver was doing every second... I don't like it, I don't want it. I do not want updates without my approval or my private actions tracked or put out there for all to see. Can you opt out of this??

6. Auto companies are known to ignore problems or fudge numbers. When the autopilot death occurred, Tesla kept throwing out the death per whatever million miles statistic. That is incredibly flawed. You cannot compare a $100,000 car with an avg middle aged driver to the driving safety of an entire population which includes drunk drivers, teenagers, etc. This is the type of thing that a traditional auto company would say to cover up a problem. Isn't this what happened with the guy who accidentally summoned his car, then Tesla said it wasn't their fault, but updated the software anyway? I may be wrong but those things just seemed sketchy to me.
Q: How is Tesla any different than traditional auto makers who far too often deny potentially costly problems, specially when they have more to lose?

Like I said, I am not here to troll or attack you. You may not like some of my opinions but I think I'm taking somewhat of a middle ground between the media and the believers. When I shop online and read reviews, I tend to only look at the bad ones to see if they have any merit or are ridiculous. I am looking for your legitimate concerns to weigh with the benefits. Thank you for your time.

 

[PtG62901]

Have you driven a Tesla?

Are you worried about your children's or grandchildren's world being ruined?

Do you think there is unlimited fossil fuels?

Have you ever been an early adapter of any technology?

I'm going to guess for the OP - no, no, haven't considered it, and no?

 

[Yggdrasill]

Anyway, I just wanted to start a conversation to see how my questions/issues with Tesla could be addressed...

Sure.

1. Elon Musk: I know you look at him like a God... and he is a brilliant guy. But too often he seems to promise the moon(or mars) when more of his attention could be put towards quality, service, making deadlines. People want an affordable car and they get unnecessary Xwing doors.
Q: Will he address issues that bother customers or will he keep chasing down the next big thing?

I certainly don't view him as a god. I was a fan of Tesla Motors for a couple of years before I knew Elon Musk existed. He has his flaws, but I do think the Model X issues were a wakeup call. I firmly believe Tesla is doing everything they can to reduce the complexity of the Model 3. Maybe the Model Y will be somewhat more adventurous, but probably not nearly to the extent of the Model X.

2. Service: I can't help but be shocked at how long some of you wait in line for service on $100,000 cars.. weeks, months... that is just unacceptable. And they plan to put hundreds of thousands more autos on the road... at this point it doesn't seem like you can build service centers fast enough.
Q: How can this possibly be resolved when Tesla owners multiply

A lot of the load will be dispensed with by increasing the reliability of the cars, the backlog from early cars has been very substantial, but is now mostly cleared away. Also, the Model 3 will be a significantly less complex car, with a lot less that can go wrong. There will probably be some challenges with servicing, but critical errors will obviously get priority. Customers need to be willing to accept some waiting time to get minor issues fixed.

3. I never buy a 1st gen car of any kind, they are always full of problems. Traditional automakers seem to work those out for the 2nd year of production.
Q: Are these problems lasting over several model years? Is that information even available?

First year warranty costs have been dropping every year. This is strongly indicative of issues constantly being resolved, but Tesla has a long way to go before being as reliable as, say, Lexus. It is a fact that Tesla is a very new car company, and there will be a learning curve. Potential customers should take this into account.

Luckily, errors that render the car inoperable are now relatively rare. There were some issues with the main contactors in the battery pack, defective motors and defective 12V batteries, but this is pretty much resolved now.

4. I own a jeep, a supercrew pickup, and a BMW 3series. I have been towed one time in 25 years because of an alternator going out. It was replaced within 24 hours. I see so many posts here about cars being taken to service centers, sitting for weeks. I plan to replace the BMW in the next few years, Tesla is an option.
Q: I want 1st class service with minimal wait time, my dealers have always taken good care of me, how many years out am I from getting this with Tesla?

I don't expect service center capacity to reach balance with the number of cars on the road until something like 2025-2030. The issue is that by the time Tesla has sufficient service centers to support 500k sales per year, they'll already be producing 1 million cars per year. And when they have sufficient service centers for 1 million sales per year, they'll be producing 2 million cars per year. At some point the production rate will stabilize, allowing the service center capacity to catch up.

5. I'm not going to argue the autopilot/summon issue. I see it from both sides. People will misuse it. The media will jump all over it. On the other hand software can error as well. A sensor that cannot see above the front bumper or detect bicycles is troubling. I see Tesla drivers on videos for unveiling cars where they set autopilot and take their hands off the wheel, I read about test drives where the salesman does the same. But my question is abit unique...
Q: I don't wear a tinfoil hat, but when a driver is an accident and Tesla releases to the public what the driver was doing every second... I don't like it, I don't want it. I do not want updates without my approval or my private actions tracked or put out there for all to see. Can you opt out of this??

Pretty sure you can opt out of the continous streaming of data to Tesla. (Worst case you could just remove the SIM card.) But data will still be stored in the car, and will be obtainable by the authorities with a warrant, provided the car isn't completely destroyed.

6. Auto companies are known to ignore problems or fudge numbers. When the autopilot death occurred, Tesla kept throwing out the death per whatever million miles statistic. That is incredibly flawed. You cannot compare a $100,000 car with an avg middle aged driver to the driving safety of an entire population which includes drunk drivers, teenagers, etc. This is the type of thing that a traditional auto company would say to cover up a problem. Isn't this what happened with the guy who accidentally summoned his car, then Tesla said it wasn't their fault, but updated the software anyway? I may be wrong but those things just seemed sketchy to me.
Q: How is Tesla any different than traditional auto makers who far too often deny potentially costly problems, specially when they have more to lose?

Tesla has a history of taking safety issues seriously. But there was no fault on Teslas side when it came to the fatal accident where the autopilot was enabled. The driver of a semi broke the law by failing to yield, and then the Tesla driver and the autopilot failed to prevent the accident, resulting in an accident. The fault lies with the driver of the semi. Of course, it would have been great if the autopilot had managed to prevent the accident. Every life saved matters. (The capability of the autopilot to avoid accidents is something we can expect will improve over time, as the SW is improved and new sensors are added.)

Now, when it comes to the use of the statistics, I agree it's misleading. Tesla sucks at communication sometimes.

 

[sandpiper]

Like I said, I am not here to troll or attack you. You may not like some of my opinions but I think I'm taking somewhat of a middle ground between the media and the believers. When I shop online and read reviews, I tend to only look at the bad ones to see if they have any merit or are ridiculous. I am looking for your legitimate concerns to weigh with the benefits. Thank you for your time.

Interesting post. If you're looking from a strictly utility perspective, then the justification really isn't there. Because of the cost of current vehicle, you'll be a lot of years before the gas/maintenance benefits pay back.

The Tesla only worth it to somebody if they value what the car delivers and don't mind the shortcomings. It's quiet, incredibly powerful, non-polluting (or less polluting depending on how your power is generated), a bit of a technology showpiece, very safe, and it provides travelling range that, while less than what an ICE car offers, is still very usable.

Environmental concerns and finite fossil fuels require that EVs will replace ICEs at some point. By supporting Tesla we're hoping that they get built here - and not just in Asia.

Just adding one final comment... you need to drive one. They really are quite different. I wasn't convinced until I got a chance behind the wheel.

 

[Canuck]

I don't see battery powered autos as the future, just the next step.

Whenever I walk, the next step is the future.

1. Elon Musk: I know you look at him like a God

Like I said, I am not here to troll or attack you.

Really?

but I think I'm taking somewhat of a middle ground between the media and the believers.

Re-read your post. Can you really say this in good faith? Your post is not middle ground. It's a collection of many of the complaints here against Tesla put in one post. There's nothing wrong with that but let's call it like it is.

I never buy a 1st gen car of any kind, they are always full of problems.

Then why even consider a Tesla if you know first generation cars are always full of problems? Shouldn't your enquiry end here since you don't even ask this as a question but rather state it as a fact. Take another look at Tesla when they start making their second generation vehicles.

I want 1st class service with minimal wait time, my dealers have always taken good care of me, how many years out am I from getting this with Tesla?

I've always got first class service from Tesla so asking me how many years we are away from getting this is like asking me "When did you stop beating your wife?" But again, you're just taking the middle ground right?

Tesla releases to the public what the driver was doing every second... I don't like it, I don't want it. I do not want updates without my approval or my private actions tracked or put out there for all to see.

Yes, Tesla told my wife where I was last night even though I was just working late.

This is the type of thing that a traditional auto company would say to cover up a problem.

Tesla quoted statistics which you don't agree with and that amounts to a cover-up? Maybe just a little bit of stretch being made there?

I'm also not on some agenda to save the earth.

No surprise there.

 

[plankeye]

Sounds like you need to stick with car brands you already know and trust.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Have you driven a Tesla?

Are you worried about your children's or grandchildren's world being ruined?

Do you think there is unlimited fossil fuels?

Have you ever been an early adapter of any technology?

I'm going to guess for the OP - no, no, haven't considered it, and no?

I have not driven a Tesla, I'm going to assume that it is nice. Just like any brand at that price point. The 'drive' is far from my major concerns.

When it comes to my children, I am more worried about driving uphill through a foot of snow when the power is out and the temperature is 5 degrees. Their immediate safety is #1. And this situation has happened before when I was away on business. The power was out for days and the only way my wife could get out to a warm place with our infant/toddler children was with a big polluting 4x4 truck. If Tesla wants to make a $50k 4x4 capable pickup truck that goes 500 miles on a charge. I'll get in line.

I am not worried about that.

No, I let others work out the bugs and wait for prices on new technology to drop. I am a very patient man.

I live in an area where 50% of electricity comes from burning fossil fuels, I am going to assume that same electricity charges up a Tesla. I would rather not burn fossil fuels, but I am not going to pretend this car runs on fairy dust.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Sounds like you need to stick with car brands you already know and trust.

That is my basic position, my questions revolve around how long until I can seamlessly break away.

 

[bonaire]

" I own a jeep, a supercrew pickup, and a BMW 3series."

You already own perhaps three novelty cars - unless the truck is for work or you pull a trailer.
So, the Tesla would fit right in. However, cost may be higher on average "per novelty feature" on your scale.

If you want to try electric, you can get a used Volt or Leaf and mess around with that for a year while waiting on Tesla Model 3. Volts and Leafs used, in great shape are out there for under $10k. Friend of mine had an M5, moved to a Volt in early 2011 (first year) and loved it.

 

[ApauloThirteen]

Just adding one final comment... you need to drive one. They really are quite different. I wasn't convinced until I got a chance behind the wheel.

That's key. Go drive an EV. Tesla, eGolf, Volt, BMW i3, whatever. Quiet, with 100% torque right there. You might say 0-60 doesn't matter, or 30-60 doesn't matter, fine. Just go test drive one.

 

[Barklikeadog]

Whenever I walk, the next step is the future.





Really?



Re-read your post. Can you really say this in good faith? Your post is not middle ground. It's a collection of many of the complaints here against Tesla put in one post. There's nothing wrong with that but let's call it like it is.



Then why even consider a Tesla if you know first generation cars are always full of problems? Shouldn't your enquiry end here since you don't even ask this as a question but rather state it as a fact. Take another look at Tesla when they start making their second generation vehicles.



I've always got first class service from Tesla so asking me how many years we are away from getting this is like asking me "When did you stop beating your wife?" But again, you're just taking the middle ground right?



Yes, Tesla told my wife where I was last night even though I was just working late.



Tesla quoted statistics which you don't agree with and that amounts to a cover-up? Maybe just a little bit of stretch being made there?



No surprise there.

Than you for your reply

 

[Canuck]

I am not going to pretend this car runs on fairy dust.

Right, because we believe our cars run on fairy dust.... Mine runs mostly on river water.

It's nice to see your true colours, though, rather than the front you tried to play us with in your first post.

If you really are interested, and not just here to tell us how much better a gas powered vehicle is to save the lives of your wife and child, which is maybe just a little bit over dramatic? 5 F = -15C - that's a common low temperature at my cabin in the mountains where it often dips to -22F or -30C, and the power going out is also not uncommon, in fact closing the roads because of avalanches is not uncommon. But we don't get all worked up about it as if it's a life and death thing -- we have lots of wood for the fire and a generator - much more comfortable that your truck to the hotel or wherever -- as if she couldn't drive a Tesla there. Anyways, I digress, you might want to take some time to learn something,,,

http://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default...ctric-car-global-warming-emissions-report.pdf

 

[Chopr147]

I love being lectured by celebrities about my carbon footprint, what's the problem?
1)Elon: He will continue to chase the next big thing yes but.........
I believe while Tesla still has plenty of room for improvement they have upgraded and improved upon quality issues over the past few years. Today's S is significantly better than 2012-2014. Cars are still delivered with mis-aligned panels etc.... though.
2) Service: Short answer IDK. The X has taken over the service dep't's with it's many issues but that seems to be slowly getting better. Newer S's have better drive units and are reportedly "infinite" DU's. Less repairs etc....Tesla better straighten out issues (they have improvedas I said) before the 3 or it can become a nightmare for the company.
3) 1st generation cars. I agree and usually wait a couple of years for a models bugs to clear. I was willing to change that mentality for the model 3 and jumped on the reservation list. But now have an S with the luxury of waiting. (not my original plan)
4) Most Tesla model S's are trouble free now with the occasional hiccup. A BIG problem is if you get into an accident. Tesla has monopolized their parts and do not have a parts wharehouse. So we are left waiting for parts made to order which take long periods of time. This MUST be corrected.
5) Opt out of public info? AP is in beta and I signed an agreement giving Tesla permission to use the info when I purchased. Only way out of this I believe is to not buy the AP option. I am somewhat in agreement with you about not liking Tesla releasing this to the public. At times they have had to defend themselves against drivers blaming AP when it was driver error. Or worse like the Montana accident the driver seemed to believe his car had full autonomy. In these instances Tesla needed to publicly defend against the predictable media hysteria over AP. I like for these incidents but probably would hate it personally if it were me.
6) Stats: Tesla is taking a gamble putting AP out there in beta mode. I LOVE my AP and use it wisely. Unfortunately like anything else people do stupid things or don't take the time to understand the tech. See above. I have always been a Chevy/GMC guy but knew GM as a company should not be trusted. Maybe because Tesla is small,or new, or because of Elon, or just a different kind of company but my gut tells me to trust them, to a point. They really are just trying to make the best car ever and with zero emissions part of the mission.
They are different in that some of their patents are public because of the mission. What company does that?

Good luck with your research. TMC is a great source all things Tesla. Sure it can be a Tesla fandome at times but the constant critical oversight does not suffer. I have been on several car forums over the years but TMC is the best by far and full of info.

 

[WentOffGrid]

I live in an area where 50% of electricity comes from burning fossil fuels, I am going to assume that same electricity charges up a Tesla. I would rather not burn fossil fuels, but I am not going to pretend this car runs on fairy dust.

Well you can add solar panels, or if you don't have the roof or yard, do remote net-metering

 

[adiggs]

I have not driven a Tesla, I'm going to assume that it is nice. Just like any brand at that price point. The 'drive' is far from my major concerns.

....

Whether you're in the market for a Tesla or not, I recommend to everybody that they go by their nearby showroom and test drive a Model S or X. Electric drive really is different. Videos are made, people wax rhapsodic, and in the 3+ years I've been driving one and reading other people's attempts to describe how it's different, I haven't seen anybody be able to put into words how it's different. At least - put it into words in a way that other people get it, and no longer need to drive one for themselves, in order to understand how it's different.

There is a paradigm shift in front of you, and until you drive the car you are likely to remain on the side of the paradigm that you're on right now.


While that's true, many things that you see other people here valuing won't make sense.


You've come here in good faith and asked for more insight. This, I claim, is the central insight to explore. Go drive one. For me, and I know I'm not alone, I've never been a car guy and never particular cared about cars (get me from A to B, and back again). And then I drove a Model S, reserved a Model X, bought a Roadster, and after 3+ years of driving a Roadster, one thing I know with certainty is that any future car will be selected from the universe of battery electric vehicles (which today means Roadster, S, X).

One reason for that is the way the cars drive and respond.

I don't know that the car will reshape your world view the way it has mine and other's. I only know that lacking that experience, you lack a crucial reference point that will leave us talking past each other until you have that reference point.

It's seriously fun

 

[meloccom]

Not everyone is ready for a Tesla and that is OK. I would test drive a Tesla if I were you as part of your search to replace the BMW 3 series. I would also see if the new BMW 330e plug in hybrid is available in your area as that would be a good gateway car to all electric.
As you live in a snow belt area I would look for dual motors and air suspension on a Model S and you have a very capable car, but not a go anywhere truck. But neither is a 3 series.
Not an American, but I have never had any problem booking in for service or repair, but neither has much gone wrong with my late 2014 Model S 85. Asking you local Tesla SC when is the next available appointment for say a drive train swap my be indicative.
I have a lot of respect and admiration for Elon but he is by no means perfect. To some degree I forgive some of his missteps as I understand he is trying to drive technology forward for the benefit of mankind.
The long tailpipe argument can be influenced by your behaviour, you can install solar and batteries in your house, you can purchase green energy and show the market you are willing to pay the extra for green power. On top of this in many places in the USA and around the world the cost of renewable is at or below new installations of fossil fuel alternatives and the only direction for grid power is to become lower carbon intensive, as this occurs the carbon intensity of any electric car improves along with the grid.

 

[Canuck]

The long tailpipe argument can be influenced by your behaviour, you can install solar and batteries in your house, you can purchase green energy and show the market you are willing to pay the extra for green power. On top of this in many places in the USA and around the world the cost of renewable is at or below new installations of fossil fuel alternatives and the only direction for grid power is to become lower carbon intensive, as this occurs the carbon intensity of any electric car improves along with the grid.

He's not concerned about emissions. He was suggesting that electric vehicles powered by coal burning plants are no different than gas burning vehicles -- so there's really no benefit to the environment -- and he suggested that we are delusional in thinking there is a benefit, which is why he referenced "fairy dust."

The facts are that EV's powered by coal plants are better for the environment than gas cars, but why let the facts get in the way of a good fairy dust insult?

 

[PtG62901]

I have not driven a Tesla, I'm going to assume that it is nice. Just like any brand at that price point. The 'drive' is far from my major concerns.

When it comes to my children, I am more worried about driving uphill through a foot of snow when the power is out and the temperature is 5 degrees. Their immediate safety is #1. And this situation has happened before when I was away on business. The power was out for days and the only way my wife could get out to a warm place with our infant/toddler children was with a big polluting 4x4 truck. If Tesla wants to make a $50k 4x4 capable pickup truck that goes 500 miles on a charge. I'll get in line.

I am not worried about that.

No, I let others work out the bugs and wait for prices on new technology to drop. I am a very patient man.

I live in an area where 50% of electricity comes from burning fossil fuels, I am going to assume that same electricity charges up a Tesla. I would rather not burn fossil fuels, but I am not going to pretend this car runs on fairy dust.

So you are a standard troll. You will get an EV in 10 years or so?

 

[Matthew Short]

Elon Musk is yes very optimistic, but he has always followed through and delivered (With some delays, though Tesla is a very young company so you would expect delays) what he has said he would.

 

[Barklikeadog]

" I own a jeep, a supercrew pickup, and a BMW 3series."

You already own perhaps three novelty cars - unless the truck is for work or you pull a trailer.
So, the Tesla would fit right in. However, cost may be higher on average "per novelty feature" on your scale.

If you want to try electric, you can get a used Volt or Leaf and mess around with that for a year while waiting on Tesla Model 3. Volts and Leafs used, in great shape are out there for under $10k. Friend of mine had an M5, moved to a Volt in early 2011 (first year) and loved it.

I am extremely active outdoors. My wife wanted a jeep so she has a jeep. That needs no explanation. I do have a trailer. I only drive the truck a few thousand miles per year when it is useful. family trips, winter, hauling... My concern is a daily driver in a few years now that Tesla will have a 35k car. I can afford an S or X but I have better things to put the extra $$ towards.