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Coronavirus

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by Wenche, Jan 27, 2020.

  1. linux-works

    linux-works Active Member

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    The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
    He makes me down to lie
    Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by
    With bright knives He releaseth my soul
    He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places

    whoa. pink floyd flashback time.

    those knives?
     
  2. linux-works

    linux-works Active Member

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    the dem's have been too 'kind' and have not retaliated in-kind.

    I'm hoping and expecting that to change. you cant be polite if the other side refuses to. sometimes you do have to fight fire with fire.

    we've broken so many 'customs', that I think the rule of law should win - and if that means 'embarassing' the red team, so be it. so many belong in jail. its not wrong to seek justice and to put fear into the next wannabe autocrat that this is NOT acceptable and you will be punished once your term ends (and in america, terms ALWAYS end; there is no tolerance that I've seen in any of the red team to allow trump to stay beyond his allowed term. his power ends january 20th and that's not a soft thing - that's absolute. he simply does not have the power to ignore that rule. I'll bet money on it, gentleman's bet, of course ;)

    he talks a good game, but there are those who still respect our 200+ years of rule-of-law and I honestly don't think he could pull it off. he simply does not have popular support, for one thing.
     
  3. dfwatt

    dfwatt Active Member

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    #19603 dfwatt, Aug 1, 2020 at 12:38 PM
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 12:51 PM
    Today's Moron Award winner is Representative Louie Gohmert whose office is receiving an entire complementary case of Moron Spray for his recent articulation that masks probably caused his contracting of covid-19. As for whether or not Representative Gohmert might have infected many people in Congress because of his cavalier approach to covid-19, his office had no comment.

    We salute Louie today as our latest Moron Award winner. Good job Louie! Keep up the misinformation and keep spreading that covid-19!

    Today's Award was a particularly difficult decision because of the need to recognize the 700 morons in New Jersey at a house party on the beach, celebrating covid-19. Since we have not given a group award yet however Louie won out.
    20200801_153129.jpg
     
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  4. dfwatt

    dfwatt Active Member

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    At least they have Effective Government and can set limits on lunacy and right-wing Nut Jobery.
     
  5. RobStark

    RobStark Well-Known Member

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    Even among the very rational,secular and civic Germans there is pandemic dumbassery.

    upload_2020-8-1_13-11-5.png
     
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  6. madodel

    madodel X at the end of a rainbow

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    My daughter doesn't understand what they are protesting. Other than wearing masks there aren't much if any things they can't do in Germany. I wonder if our NAZIs have been egging on their NAZIs?
     
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  7. Papafox

    Papafox Active Member

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    While I agree with you that Gohmert earned a Moron Award for his position on masks, I'll give him points for consulting with his physician and the two deciding to go forward with the hydroxychloroquine, antibiotic, and zinc therapy. He's old enough to be at serious risk if COVID 19 progresses, but he's starting this treatment early enough that he should be in good shape five days from now, given that he's not showing any serious symptoms yet. Given the potential seriousness of Covid 19 for someone his age, I concur with his physician's decision that any risk from heart arrhythmia is outweighed by the risks of Covid 19 if he doesn't nip the disease in the bud.
     
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  8. bkp_duke

    bkp_duke Active Member

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    Statistics dictate that if he did absolutely nothing, he would be fine in 5 days from now. :D

    He should be on dexamethasone and remdesivir, and failure to do so by his physician is, literally, medical malpractice. I hope his doctor loses his license.
     
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  9. Papafox

    Papafox Active Member

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    You provide lots of valuable input to this thread, so it's particularly a shame that your biases against HCQ are so strong. The critical issue here is that Covid 19 is like two different diseases: a flu-like disease leading into the battle within the lungs and a very serious threat once that battle begins. I haven't seen any treatment that shows more promise for keeping someone away from that advanced battle than the HCQ with zinc cocktail. Retrospective studies show very substantial reductions in keeping COVID 19 patients from needing hospitalization, something on the order of an 80% improvement compared to traditional treatments. Here's the thing: with remdesivir being delivered intravenously our hospitals would be packed if everyone with a positive COVID 19 test insisted on admission in order to receive remdesevir. It's not a workable plan. OTOH, the HCQ and zinc cocktail can affordably be given on an outpatient basis.

    Consider the inconsistency in your answer. On one hand you say Gohmert is going to do fine without any treatment, and yet you say that he should be receiving remdesivir and dexamethasone, which requires that he be hospitalized. Choose one, please, you can't say he's in no danger statistically while simultaneously saying he needs to be hospitalized and receiving these other treatments.
     
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  10. tonybelding

    tonybelding Active Member

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  11. wdolson

    wdolson Supporting Member

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    Last night I had a dream that I was in a store, found myself in a large clump of people, and then realized I wasn't wearing a mask and panicked. (I held my breath and got out of there in the dream.) It's interesting how life intrudes in our dreams. Only a few months ago few people would have given a second thought in that situation.

    I saw the pictures of your S in the link you posted. Looks nice. I saw a Model X the same color a few days ago. They must have gotten the same wrap treatment.
     
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  12. eevee-fan

    eevee-fan Active Member

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    I guess this is the test group.

     
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  13. bkp_duke

    bkp_duke Active Member

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    #19613 bkp_duke, Aug 1, 2020 at 5:37 PM
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 5:51 PM
    There is no inconsistency. His odds of survival if NOTHING is done for someone of his age are 90%. Those odds DO NOT improve with HCQ.

    I know you have an EMOTIONAL attachment to this drug, but I don't. I'm not biased against it, I simply KNOW the side-effect profile of the drug. This is NOT a drug with the side-effect profile of aspirin. I'm about the coldest, most harsh, hard-data person you will ever (not) meet. The only real thing that pushes my buttons is stupidity, and there is a @#$% ton of that in this thread by people that want to promote things they are emotionally attached do, but that the data do not support.

    Simply put, the data to support HCQ as a treatment for ANY phase of COVID-19 is simply NOT THERE. The data that it does MORE HARM than good is there. Those are simply the facts, like them or not be damned. Furthermore, you keep misinterpreting those retrospective studies you are so fond of. If you ACTUALLY read the conclusions of the authors, they say MORE studies (prospective, randomized control studies) should be undertaken to look at HCQ further. Those prospective, randomized control studies have been done, at least enough with 10s of thousands of people and the data for them so far, and they show that HCQ doesn't work. RETROSPECTIVE studies are ONLY designed to give you candidates and ideas to sus out further. NEVER are they used for medical decision making, BECAUSE they are ALWAYS full of confounding variables. THAT is the LEAP you keep making, treatment from RETROSPECTIVE, OBSERVATIONAL (i.e. non-interventional) studies is VERY incorrect.


    Dexamethasone can easily be given as an outpatient (I agree with you on remdesivir), so that kills your outpatient argument for HCQ being the only thing that can be done. Dexamethasone is also FAR more prevalent a drug than HCQ, and cheaper too. It's also just one of many corticosteroids that could be prescribed (prednisone, prednisilone, etc. would all be viable alternatives to dexamethasone that work through the same steroid signaling pathway).
     
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  14. bkp_duke

    bkp_duke Active Member

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    I absolutely LOVE the "ULTRA DOOM" badge on that car. Mad props for that.

    The color is sick too (in a good way).
     
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  15. dfwatt

    dfwatt Active Member

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    Their Nazis are making a comeback. It's really kind of scary.
     
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  16. madodel

    madodel X at the end of a rainbow

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    Link doesn't work but they've always been there. NAZIs take advantage of changing times and ginning up hate and blame for 'others'. They are using this pandemic to get more support for their hate. I have found that Germans are very aware of their past and most will do the right thing. I'm more concerned about the 30-40% in the US who politicize this virus and refuse to accept reality.
     
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  17. Papafox

    Papafox Active Member

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    #19617 Papafox, Aug 1, 2020 at 6:53 PM
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020 at 7:21 PM
    In reply to @bkp_duke

    There is no inconsistency. His odds of survival if NOTHING is done for someone of his age are 90%.

    90% eh? If it was you, would you take the roll of the dice on 90% survival? I sure wouldn't. Instead, I'd do everything in my power to stop the disease before it progressed into the serious battle within the lungs. Right now, I haven't seen a treatment more adept at preventing that progression than using HCQ, an antibiotic, and zinc. Show me one scientific study done on patients who were given HCQ and zinc early in the disease that indicates the treatment is without value. Studies that exclude zinc are of zero value in this discussion. Zinc is an essential ingredient in the successful treatment of Covid 19 with HCQ and it's the missing ingredient again and again in studies.

    Those odds DO NOT improve with HCQ.
    I notice you left out the word "zinc" in this reply. Zinc is an essential ingredient in the cocktail. You have no basis to say this about the cocktail with HCQ and zinc because you cannot produce a study that backs your position. Studies that lack zinc or are given to patients already in the advanced stages of the disease are of no value for our discussion.

    I know you have an EMOTIONAL attachment to this drug, but I don't. I'm not biased against it, I simply KNOW the side-effect profile of the drug. This is NOT a drug with the side-effect profile of aspirin. I'm about the coldest, most harsh, hard-data person you will ever (not) meet. The only real thing that pushes my buttons is stupidity, and there is a @#$% ton of that in this thread by people that want to promote things they are emotionally attached do, but that the data do not support.
    There you go again, belittling your opponent by calling his position emotion-based. Please, stick to facts and logic and attempt to exclude emotion and inappropriate digressions from your replies.

    Simply put, the data to support HCQ as a treatment for ANY phase of COVID-19 is simply NOT THERE.
    Let's consider this statement.
    Nobody has done a controlled random test of HCQ with zinc yet. Retrospective studies are the best we have to go on right now, and they're suggesting that the cocktail that contains both HCQ and zinc is VERY effective at preventing the progression of the disease IF GIVEN EARLY.

    The data that it does MORE HARM than good is there.
    Wrong. If anywhere near 10% of patients who took Hydroxychloroquine for lupus or arthritis died after 5 days of the treatment, then you would have a point. The reality is the risk is extremely small for this low dose of HCQ given over five days. Granted, the inclusion of azithromycin increases the arrhythmia threat, but the combined drugs don't pose more than 1/10 of 1% of a risk over 5 days, and we know that number is likely way too high. In contrast, a 10% chance of dying from Covid 19 if it progresses to advanced levels is a very serious threat. Again, this is a question of balancing risks, and many, many doctors would opt for the minor risk with HCQ and azithromycin versus the severe threat of COVID 19 progressing to advanced stages in an older patient.

    Those are simply the facts, like them or not be damned. Furthermore, you keep misinterpreting those retrospective studies you are so fond of. If you ACTUALLY read the conclusions of the authors, they say MORE studies (prospective, randomized control studies) should be undertaken to look at HCQ further. Those prospective, randomized control studies have been done, at least enough with 10s of thousands of people and the data for them so far, and they show that HCQ doesn't work.
    This is the mistake you keep making again and again. You are grouping HCQ studies with studies of HCQ, azithromycin, and zinc (especially with zinc). Those studies that exclude zinc are worthless because zinc is an absolutely essential ingredient in the cocktail. The HCQ allows the zinc into the cells. Without zinc, the treatment loses its effectiveness.

    RETROSPECTIVE studies are ONLY designed to give you candidates and ideas to sus out further. NEVER are they used for medical decision making, BECAUSE they are ALWAYS full of confounding variables. THAT is the LEAP you keep making, treatment from RETROSPECTIVE, OBSERVATIONAL (i.e. non-interventional) studies is VERY incorrect.

    We both agree that we need to get beyond a retrospective study and to a serious random trial with placebo or alternate treatment. Nonetheless, it's the best we have to go on at present. The authors of the study are not saying the retrospective study is without merit. They're saying the data strongly show that HCQ when used with zinc early in the disease progression is compelling enough that it should inspire a controlled study. Until that controlled study come out, if it ever does, the retrospective study is the best we have.

    Dexamethasone can easily be given as an outpatient (I agree with you on remdesivir), so that kills your outpatient argument for HCQ being the only thing that can be done. Dexamethasone is also FAR more prevalent a drug than HCQ, and cheaper too. It's also just one of many corticosteroids that could be prescribed (prednisone, prednisilone, etc. would all be viable alternatives to dexamethasone that work through the same
    Here are two problems with your argument. First, an anti-inflamatory such as dexamethasone is primarily focused on promoting survival by minimizing the problems within the lungs as the disease progresses to more advanced stages. By contrast, the HCQ and zinc cocktail is best at preventing the evolution of the disease from reaching that battle in the lungs. Once a patient is experiencing shortage of breath, it's time to get him on remdesivir and dexamethasone, we both agree on that. Unfortunately, there's a shortage of remdesivir and some states such as Pennsylvania are holding lotteries to see who gets the remdesivir. A better outcome would be to reduce the number of patients who need hospitalization in the first place, and the HCQ and zinc cocktail appears to be the best solution so far. Again, I say appears to be because I'm basing my statement off a retrospective study rather than a controlled study. Why don't we both agree that what's necessary is a controlled study of HCQ, azythromycin, and zinc administered early and judged against a placebo or an alternative treatment? I'm saying the study by Scholz, Derwand, and Zelenko is so compelling it's time to get this study underway.
     
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  18. SMAlset

    SMAlset Well-Known Member

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  19. dfwatt

    dfwatt Active Member

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    This of course confirms or at least helps to confirm what has long been suspected. That roughly one-third of the population has a partial recognition by their immune system of covid-19.
     
  20. lascavarian

    lascavarian Member

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    Your argument for a study is weakened by the studies that show compelling safety concerns with HCQ. You make no case that Zinc improves safety. IMO few review boards would approve a Zinc study with HCQ. Perhaps with a more safe alternative to HCQ and it would likely go against the next best alternative.

    The problem with any study with HCQ at this point remains safety as I see it. If Zinc is the key then find a safer substitute for HCQ at least.
     
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