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madodel

X at the end of a rainbow
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2015
2,800
11,846
Poconos, NE Pennsylvania, United States
The locking of the thread and the time we spend here divided between political and scientific issues suggest the possibility that the scientific discussions and debates should be protected - well maybe that's a lost cause, but as much as possible protected - from the politics and the divisiveness of the political debate. Would it be possible to have this current thread continue to be a political discussion thread and a new thread started where serious science and discussion of scientific findings would be the principle currency. Here's what I posted in the market politics thread:

The coronavirus thread looks like it's locked and is not coming back. I would vote for the following idea: political implications of the coronavirus crisis can be posted here but I'm going to try to start a new thread that's dedicated only to coronavirus science. This means epidemiology, biology, treatment, vaccinations, Public Health implications, and any other treatment or medical dimension to the crisis, including the psychological impact of the crisis, while political posts particularly any version of covid-19 denial should be considered inappropriate. Who would be interested in such a separation of content?

I think part of the problem is that the political debates have partially submerged discussion of the science - in the current environment it's virtually impossible to have a discussion of the science that is not politicized by some actors. It shouldn't be that way, and it is an indication of the destructive polarization taking place everywhere, but science even though it's always influenced by politics, should be about weight of evidence, not the popularity of a meme.

Would a new thread titled Coronavirus Science: Epidemiology, Public Health, Biology, Treatment, and Vaccination be something that should be split off from the current thread which has been perhaps hopelessly politicized. Political debates could stay in the current thread? What do people think?
Would be great but so much of the ideas about COVID19 are linked to politics now, especially when these are launched by the president of the United States. Unless you limit the new thread to only discussions supported by existing data from reputable studies I don't see how you keep the politics out. Just by limiting it to reputable studies/ideas will draw accusations of being politically biased.
 

madodel

X at the end of a rainbow
Supporting Member
Apr 6, 2015
2,800
11,846
Poconos, NE Pennsylvania, United States
You can do that, but is there much to say about the science that isn't just a reply to the political posturing? New findings and new legitimate studies come only occasionally. I'd hope that everyone knows by now that masks, hygiene, vitamins C and D, distancing, and isolation are necessary to keep the virus from spreading.
A lot of discussion will revolve around the vaccine candidates and ongoing trials. Hopefully that is not politicized but I fear that it will. All the other things are just to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.
 

dhanson865

Active Member
Feb 16, 2013
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Knoxville, Tennessee
z2lu70gppqe51.jpg
 

dfwatt

Best Car Ever
Sep 24, 2018
3,372
5,549
FL
You can do that, but is there much to say about the science that isn't just a reply to the political posturing? New findings and new legitimate studies come only occasionally. I'd hope that everyone knows by now that masks, hygiene, vitamins C and D, distancing, and isolation are necessary to keep the virus from spreading.

Yes of course science has much to say that isn't just a reply to political posturing. But the politically divisive content might be best discussed in a thread separate from the scientific debate but then again perhaps that's a specious separation. I don't know as I said, I'd want to hear if there's a clear consensus on splitting this thread which has contained a lot of good scientific content and scientific debate but also obviously political stuff including political humor. I'm just curious what the pulse of the forum members is on such a split. Would it weaken discussion or would the separation improve things things?
 
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dfwatt

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Sep 24, 2018
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FL
A lot of discussion will revolve around the vaccine candidates and ongoing trials. Hopefully that is not politicized but I fear that it will. All the other things are just to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed.

What's worrisome about the vaccine situation is the political pressure that's being applied to the FDA and through various Administration proxies to the drug companies themselves to get a vaccine on a timetable that would help Trump's re-election. Plus many of the folks in the administration who are stakeholders in various big Pharma operations have just been immunized against conflict of interest suggesting that conflicts of interest are rampant. What else is new? This is just another area where the question has to be asked will guardrails actually hold or will they be supervened and will we get a vaccine rushed to Market that in fact is either ineffective and / or dangerous?
 
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AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
11,336
14,536
San Diego
Yes of course science has much to say that isn't just a reply to political posturing. But the politically divisive content might be best discussed in a thread separate from the scientific debate but then again perhaps that's a specious separation. I don't know as I said, I'd want to hear if there's a clear consensus on splitting this thread which has contained a lot of good scientific content and scientific debate but also obviously political stuff including political humor. I'm just curious what the pulse of the forum members is on such a split. Would it weaken discussion or would the separation improve things things?

I think we should just keep it here, just to make it easier to pull up historical posts. We should all:

1) Try to limit the political discussion as much as possible. Typically it takes two to tango. So it's relatively easy to shut down that sort of discussion, usually.

2) Keep it as focused on facts of coronavirus as possible (and any possible impacts on Tesla/TSLA, though these things appear completely decoupled, at least for now - but could change any time!). Predictions seem ok too, preferably backed with some sort of rationale for the prediction.

I've learned a lot here, both facts, and also fiction; it has made me aware of the leading conspiracy/falsehoods being propagated - usually the latest falsehood makes in on here one way or another, so it's kind of a concentrator of information (or misinformation). Should keep it going.

For HCQ, there's really nothing left to be said until there is more news.
 
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SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
12,895
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New Mexico
The locking of the thread and the time we spend here divided between political and scientific issues suggest the possibility that the scientific discussions and debates should be protected
So far as I can tell, the thread was locked by ggr over argument regarding HCQ between you and ppx.

I suggest the first order of business should be to remove mod privileges from ggr.
As for ppx and his HCQ crusade, it is surely not science but it is also not politics. I put it in the 'nonsense' category but honestly, how many posts in this thread (or in TMC overall) are not ? PPx only stands out due to his obstinacy in posting the same drivel repeatedly.
 

dfwatt

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Sep 24, 2018
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So far as I can tell, the thread was locked by ggr over argument regarding HCQ between you and ppx.

I suggest the first order of business should be to remove mod privileges from ggr.
As for ppx and his HCQ crusade, it is surely not science but it is also not politics. I put it in the 'nonsense' category but honestly, how many posts in this thread (or in TMC overall) are not ? PPx only stands out due to his obstinacy in posting the same drivel repeatedly.

He didn't specify. Perhaps it was the whole hydroxychloroquine debate that he thought was a process of everyone spinning their wheels. I don't know. But it seemed a poor reason to lock the thread (if spinning our Wheels was a reason to lock the thread the thread should have been locked a long time ago!). Seemed arbitrary and I wondered if it was done for other reasons?
 
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TEG

Teslafanatic
Moderator
Aug 20, 2006
21,991
9,259
Although COVID is a global problem, I expect there is going to be a global pecking order once the (presumed) vaccines are available.
There could be some nationalistic bias and competition coming up. (Chinese get the Chinese vaccination first, American's get the American vaccine first, etc.)
It seems to me there may be multiple options on global vaccinations next year, and there could be some clamor and strategizing on who gets what.
( Say for instance, vaccines made in UK were better than vaccines made in USA, what American's might get the UK version? )

The red/blue internal USA politics which threatens to derail this thread is one thing, but nationalistic interests are also likely to become a hot topic in the near future.

In an ideal world, the most effective vaccine that the world can produce would be mass produced at a global scale and given to everyone, but I doubt that will happen.
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Moderator
Mar 24, 2011
7,059
28,984
San Diego, CA
I suggest the first order of business should be to remove mod privileges from ggr.
I support this. No, really. I would spend less time doing the "invisible" moderation like getting rid of spam and fixing people's formatting errors for them, and not angsting about whether or not to take any action, if I couldn't. I did in fact request that they be taken away. Other moderators have just left the forums altogether, but I derive too much value to do that. Where's Red Kryptonite when you need it? (I think it was red. The one that was speculated in the comics that took away all Superman's powers forever, but they couldn't actually use it, cuz then the comic would be over.)

dfwatt said:
He didn't specify. Perhaps it was the whole hydroxychloroquine debate that he thought was a process of everyone spinning their wheels. I don't know. But it seemed a poor reason to lock the thread (if spinning our Wheels was a reason to lock the thread the thread should have been locked a long time ago!). Seemed arbitrary and I wondered if it was done for other reasons?
Sorry, I thought it was obvious, I was giving everyone involved in that argument about HCQ a timeout, without putting a bunch of individuals in separate corners. I said it would be unlocked at latest this morning, so why people reacted as if I locked it forever I don't know. Other moderators have suggested nuking this and the politics thread entirely.
 

jerry33

(S85-3/2/13 traded in) X LR: F2611##-3/27/20
Supporting Member
Mar 8, 2012
20,193
25,799
Texas
If I was a Mod, I would have locked the thread as well (No, I am not volunteering.) It was pretty obvious that A) both sides said everything that needed to be said many posts ago, and B) Neither side would budge from their position. Any additional dialogue would add smoke but not heat.
 

dfwatt

Best Car Ever
Sep 24, 2018
3,372
5,549
FL
I support this. No, really. I would spend less time doing the "invisible" moderation like getting rid of spam and fixing people's formatting errors for them, and not angsting about whether or not to take any action, if I couldn't. I did in fact request that they be taken away. Other moderators have just left the forums altogether, but I derive too much value to do that. Where's Red Kryptonite when you need it? (I think it was red. The one that was speculated in the comics that took away all Superman's powers forever, but they couldn't actually use it, cuz then the comic would be over.)


Sorry, I thought it was obvious, I was giving everyone involved in that argument about HCQ a timeout, without putting a bunch of individuals in separate corners. I said it would be unlocked at latest this morning, so why people reacted as if I locked it forever I don't know. Other moderators have suggested nuking this and the politics thread entirely.

I'm not sure that it's either surprising or somehow terrible that the thread mirrors the division in the society. Perhaps a gentle nudge from the moderator saying that we are spinning our wheels or we're going around in circles or something like that could help us reframe the discussion along more constructive lines. Locking the thread on the other hand seems heavy handed and feels more like punishment but we're not quite sure what we're being punished for as opposed to redirection, but again that's just my Take and other people may see it differently.

Ps i'm glad i'm not a moderator on this thread.
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Moderator
Mar 24, 2011
7,059
28,984
San Diego, CA
Temporarily locking the thread got people's attention and got people to re-evaluate the discussion.

If a mod shows up and just says "keep it civil, folks", those can end up being shrugged off and ignored. ("Wasn't meant for me...")
But temp locking a thread puts everyone on notice to tone things down.
Indeed, I did warn people last week, both personally and with a posting here... which was completely ignored. I can't be bothered finding it.
 

SageBrush

REJECT Fascism
May 7, 2015
12,895
17,223
New Mexico
I support this. No, really
Glad to hear.
Then the question remains: can you exercise self-restraint ?

I recommend that you read the TMC TOS. You will not find 'running around in circles' a violation of the TOS. If you had used your Mod status to say "folks, you are clogging up the thread with a rehash of a rehash of a rehash; please move on" you would have provided value. As it is, you prevented discussion of anything Covid-19 related and only presented yourself as a little Mod who wants to wave his stick around.
 

bkp_duke

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2016
5,937
22,956
San Diego, CA
You are surprised they acted irrationally and were scared their little echo chamber would be abolished? A thread led by lefty loons, ego maniacs and an always projecting, washed up psychologist? All of whom suffer from severe cases of Trump Derangement Syndrome? LOL.

You should listen to the other mods and these specific threads should be closed. At the very minimum, they should be removed from the Investor Forum area. You need a micron microscope to see any mention of TSLA here and that should be the objective measurement to determine the value of keeping these threads alive. Putting a 12 hour lockdown on this thread is like wearing a mask to block a 0.1 micron virus....IT DOES NOT WORK. It just an illusion of control.

I've never voted for a democrat in my life, and I still know the science that:
1) Masks and social distancing work
2) HCQ is politicized BS that has no viable science behind it.

But nice of you to again try to derail the thread and make it a left vs. right thing.
 

SteveG3

Active Member
Supporting Member
Sep 21, 2012
4,013
15,450
US
Glad to hear.
Then the question remains: can you exercise self-restraint ?

I recommend that you read the TMC TOS. You will not find 'running around in circles' a violation of the TOS. If you had used your Mod status to say "folks, you are clogging up the thread with a rehash of a rehash of a rehash; please move on" you would have provided value. As it is, you prevented discussion of anything Covid-19 related and only presented yourself as a little Mod who wants to wave his stick around.

ggr's last post just above was agreeing with TEG's comment that a "keep it civil folks" note from the mods inserted into the discussion just gets ignored. I think that's a pretty good indicator that the 12 hour freeze wasn't simply to spare us running in circles, but, to let people cool down and hopefully return to a more respectful dialog. since this thread has been unlocked, in the 20 comments or so there have already been two three four with quite caustic remarks about people posting here. perhaps we can put the like of those two three four posts behind us, and, from here on out demonstrate that those 12 hours was plenty enough of a "cooling off" period.
 
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