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I practiced for a significant time, much of it on the "front line". I never once saw a patient that was REALLY sick that declined to be treated because they were concerned of bankruptcy. AFTER the fact, they were concerned about costs, yes. This is a fun talking point for those that favor socialized medicine, but not one that fits well with the facts. So let me throw out the other talking point:

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE AND RATIONED CARE
I have a cousin that is a doctor in Toronto, and he was visiting just in Dec and we talked about the differences in medical systems between the two countries. We were both very open in the discussion and wanted to hear the other's perspective, not trying to push any biases we might have. Without anyone prompting, he openly admitted that in the Canadian system has a substantial flaw and that as an Internal Medicine physician, they actively ration care in the system. The sickest patients in theory get bumped up to the front of the line, but even with that it can still be months before they see the specialist they need to and get the treatment they need, and he openly admitted that many of them DIE WAITING FOR CARE. He believes that because of the rising costs of healthcare in Canada (yep, they have the same problem we do) that the administrators of that system actively refuse to add capacity (and increase costs) and "bleed off" some of the sickest patients by letting them die before they get the care they need. This is why the rich in Canada (prevented from buying insurance there), come to the US for treatment to "bypass the lines" in their own country.

Both systems have their flaws, and they are significant. The Mainstream Media keeps pushing the positives of socialized medicine without wanting to acknowledge the flaws that come with that system.

I used to live in Canada (Ontario) and this is essentially correct. I am continually amazed I can get an MRI in days here. In Canada, it's 6+ months of waiting. Depending on what plan you're on, you might have to pay for it here in the US, or pay some of the cost, but its the difference between getting care (in the US) and essentially not getting it (in Canada). Even with something as routine as a GP visit, I can get in same day usually at my local GP. In my books, that's pretty valuable.

Sorry, didn't mean to add to the politics, but sometimes I get tired of the socialist stuff here.
 
At this moment, Johns Hopkins site is reporting 27004 cases of COVID19 with 347 deaths attributed to it, that's a 1.2 % death rate for persons identified as having the virus. Nobody knows right now but let's just say there are at least 10x that number with COVID19 that have not been identified. That would make current death rate in the USA of 0.12% which is same as influenza. Can't predict the future but those are the facts, right now, on 3/22/202 at 1:19pm est.

Can we ban this sort of nonsense drivel please?!? Italy is seeing 500-1000 deaths from Covid-19 daily. Anyone still trying to compare the lethality of the virus to the regular flu should get a lifetime ban due to utter stupidity.
 
How hard is it to do a search? LMGTFY
Mortality went down during the Great Depression in the US. Also during the Great Recession in the US.
Did the Great Recession affect mortality rates in the metropolitan United States? Effects on mortality by age, gender and cause of death - ScienceDirect
It really sounds like you made up your mind before doing any research.

I see your bid and raise:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(19)30409-7/fulltext

Or, just look at africa and the rest of the third world. Do you really think money doesn't impact health?
 
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With all these companies locked down there's no doubt that there'll be at least a short term hit to economy. But with all the financing packages and emergency spending there'll be a corresponding, deficit financed, push back.

There may be some technological advances as engineers start getting involved in new fields. New, automated medical test protocols could be one area.

The situation may even change a few minds within the ubiquitous denier culture, that segment of the population that is convinced that leaving everything to the wisdom of the market is enough. If that can happen maybe the huge cost will bring us something positive.
 
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Am I seeing that correctly: The death rate among closed cases is 13% ? How does this number relate to the usually much lower numbers?
Well, it's 100% against the death cases. Basically, it's a percentage with no meaning. As far as I know, the only numbers that can be used are population vs death, and even that's not very meaningful until the virus has run it's course. The rest of the numbers are even more meaningless due to the lack of testing. We don't know how many people actually have it, how many have had it but didn't have either any or severe symptoms. We do know about some closed groups, such as cruise ships, but they don't reflect the general population.
 
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the early border closure to China, South Korea, Iran and Italy seemed to have worked.
pity about the rest of Europe and America.
 
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At this moment, Johns Hopkins site is reporting 27004 cases of COVID19 with 347 deaths attributed to it, that's a 1.2 % death rate for persons identified as having the virus. Nobody knows right now but let's just say there are at least 10x that number with COVID19 that have not been identified. That would make current death rate in the USA of 0.12% which is same as influenza. Can't predict the future but those are the facts, right now, on 3/22/202 at 1:19pm est.

Well... if you want to be taking early numbers out of context, here are some more ones. From the same site:
upload_2020-3-22_16-38-40.png



There are 414 deaths for 178 recoveries. So... it has a 70% death rate, right?

Doing this is just as meaningful or meaningless as dividing deaths by active cases during the exponential growth phase.

After a while both of these numbers will converge to the same. Until then they’re meaningless.
 
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Of course not.
Recessions do not cause an increase in mortality in wealthy countries. People who are panicking about excess deaths can relax.

Fair point about how things work differently in different environments. Which is why I raised question to your post about how the recession didn't impact mortality rates in Europe during the recession.

I can find a peer reviewed article to support any of my opinions on this topic *very* easily.

I still wonder - how wealthy are you and your family in San Diego that you don't worry about the economic effects of the response to CV-19?

My group is gathering health data on heart attack rates and other such things at this time. We expect, but don't know yet, that there will be a significant increase. We also expect mental health visits and suicides to increase. Do those count as real, to you?
 
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https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/heal...sixth-australian-dies-from-the-virus-c-750988

fwiw, the ages of the initial 6 deaths in Australia
86,90,95,82,77,78
i don't know the 7th.
A question that could be asked is what is the age distribution of all the cases? The reason I'm asking is that often it's only older folks that have the money to travel extensively. I'm not saying the idea that the older you are the worse it will be for a variety of reasons is incorrect, because it's likely correct, but it would be interesting to know.
 
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A question that could be asked is what is the age distribution of all the cases? The reason I'm asking is that often it's only older folks that have the money to travel extensively. I'm not saying the idea that the older you are the worse it will be for a variety of reasons is incorrect, because it's likely correct, but it would be interesting to know.

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(Australia)
 
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I have a new prediction. If our only option is flattening the curve, which will last months, we are screwed. I think a treatment will surface soon that greatly reduces the length of ICU stay and mortality, and keeps patients out of the hospital. As soon as that happens, restrictions will be lifted and the world will be back to work as normal, with a very fast stock market rebound. I'm hoping to buy more TSLA near the bottom, and I hope I don't miss the rebound too much.
 
Nextstrain on Twitter

Here's the phylogenetic tree for Washington State. Only recently (this past week) have cases shown up in WA state (in the sampling that has been done - not nearly every case is sequenced) which are from other locations other than the "Washington Patient 0" case (imports).

So it's reasonable to think that nearly all of the infections in Washington State (to date) are due to that traveler from Wuhan in mid-January who was identified and quarantined and contact-traced (but the virus escaped in spite of those efforts). That virus circulated undetected for a couple weeks. The Flu Study picked it up after a couple weeks, knew it was likely COVID-19, but was not allowed to run a test to confirm it. They finally were allowed to confirm it at the end of February. There was a story in Seattle Times that gives all the details on the timeline; I'm too lazy to look it up right now.

We live in the subrubs of Portland, OR. Washington is very Puget Sound-centric and even though the Vancouver, WA metro are is just about tied for second largest in the state (with Spokane), it's ignored by the state to a large degree.

There is a lot of travel between Seattle and Portland, so it is quite possible the strain we got originated in Seattle. It's also almost certain that some strains will never be sequenced because they popped up and died out quickly. RNA viruses mutate faster than DNA because they only have one strand of genetic material and no way to repair damaged strands.

A mutation that leaves a virus still virulent, but only quasi stable may fall apart at its next mutation and not spread. Other reasons are a single point introduction of a strain into a population could die out quickly because it has a mutation to be less contagious, or the number of people infected by case 1 is small and those people don't spread it for some reason. I work from home all the time and my SO does most of the time, plus we're pretty careful about washing hands and such all the time.

I've never liked shaking hands with people, avoid it when possible, and for years have made a point of not touching my face after shaking hands with someone and washing my hands as soon as possible afterwards. Handshaking is a vector for transmitting cold and flu way and I haven't had a full blown illness of any kind in over 10 years. It's a bit OCD of me, but it works.

with mouser and digikey (and a few other) you know you're getting real parts.

I'm also going to play with UVC and see what I can come up with. I ordered an assortment of bulbs, both glass and led. need to work out the 'box' and timer stuff, but that's just mechanics.

what I (and others) want to know is - how do we know when we're done? what is the DoD (definition of 'done')? we can throw power and time at it, but any way to detect when the virus is deactivated? that's the trick.

or, if we knew what the equiv time and power needed was, we could measure it (with what sensor, btw?) and use calibrated tables. at least that would be something.

I didn't read the whole thread today so this might have been answered: DoD (Department of Defense) spec parts are built to survive more extreme temperatures. Though counterfeit parts are a big problem in the electronics industry hitting even the highest rep companies. About 10 years ago NEC ended up with a large batch of counterfeit capacitors in their monitors. There are replacement kits you can buy to replace the originals with more reliable capacitors. The counterfeits tended to pop open after a while.

I had a monitor that was affected, replaced the capacitors and it's still functional.

I also work for a company that makes IC testing equipment and they are starting to branch out into counterfeit IC testing. I wrote the software for the tester and the guy I report to is running the testing program. Some of the testing they have been called to do is test batches of out of production parts that a company acquired for a production project. They need that part and had to scour the remaining supplies out there and remaining supply is sometimes filled with bad parts that have been sitting around a long time.

But they also test new, in production parts sometimes to see if a batch is full of counterfeits. Unscrupulous suppliers, often in China, clone popular parts with cheaper materials and/or poorer production controls and end up with parts that may initially work, but will fail down the road or will only work marginally.

Alaska Airlines lost and MD-80 off Los Angeles about 20 years ago due to some counterfeit bolts that came out of China. The bolts needed to be hardened for high stress use and it turned out they were soft steel that were marked as hardened.

From what I've heard Digikey and Mouser do get burned with counterfeits sometimes, but they are actively working to keep their supply chain clean, so their parts are probably more reliable than say somebody chosen at random on EBay.

Am I seeing that correctly: The death rate among closed cases is 13% ? How does this number relate to the usually much lower numbers?

As noted above the number of closed cases is still small and probably a very high percentage of the active cases will see full recovery. Additionally there are quite a few asymptomatic and mild cases that are not reported in the data. If you could count then and include them in the data, the death rate would fall into single digits. Probably less than 1% in places with good healthcare systems that didn't reach the critical thresh hold of overwhelm.

The 1918 flu worldwide killed about 675,000 people in the US, which was about 0.6% of the population. For most things something affecting that small a percentage of the population would be ignored. If say that is the percentage of Americans without internet (it's probably more, but just as an example) that would be considered pretty darn good market penetration. If unemployment reached 0.6% that would be a historic achievement.

But 0.6% of the population all dying of the same cause in a short period of time, especially when it becomes the dominant news story is very traumatic. And there is the medical system tightrope walk through the crisis. Where the medical system gets overwhelmed deaths skyrocket because savable patients die because they can't get medical care. That's the nightmare everyone wants to avoid if at all possible.
 
I still wonder - how wealthy are you and your family in San Diego that you don't worry about the economic effects of the response to CV-19?
Wealthy enough to buy a Tesla. :p I think the economy will bounce back quite quickly. Like I said earlier I think there is a lot of recency bias in people assuming a long slow recovery like the Great Recession. I agree that my financial security is probably biasing my opinions, I don't know how people who have lost their jobs feel.
My group is gathering health data on heart attack rates and other such things at this time. We expect, but don't know yet, that there will be a significant increase. We also expect mental health visits and suicides to increase. Do those count as real, to you?
All those absolutely count as real. I can tell you that my anxiety level right now is extremely high. I'm not sure it would be better if my parents, who are in their mid-70's and in good health, needed medical care and the hospitals were completely overwhelmed.
 
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I have a new prediction. If our only option is flattening the curve, which will last months, we are screwed. I think a treatment will surface soon that greatly reduces the length of ICU stay and mortality, and keeps patients out of the hospital. As soon as that happens, restrictions will be lifted and the world will be back to work as normal, with a very fast stock market rebound. I'm hoping to buy more TSLA near the bottom, and I hope I don't miss the rebound too much.

business as normal won’t be happening until a vaccine is in widespread availability. Even with better treatments we simply don’t have health care system capacity to cope with the number of cases that would explode if society went back to normal. Plus it must be remembered that even if someone doesn’t die there are still large negative life long medical complications for many survivors. For every death from Covid-19, there are many more people who recover but wth life long lung damage.