Coronavirus

[bkp_duke]

What "people" lives are at risk from an abortion? Only the pregnant woman who is choosing the procedure. The anti-abortion laws in this country ie Texas are versions of Sharia Law - laws based on religious belief. In Israel they pay for their citizens to have an abortion. In the Jewish faith life doesn't begin until the "first breath". If a woman has an abortion she is not putting any other persons live at risk.

True if you are fully vaccinated you are pretty safe. My wife and I are fully vaccinated in our 60's. She has an autoimmune disease. Got Covid 1 week ago. Lost smell and taste and has been sick. She is getting better - didn't have to go to the hospital. What do you think is the statistic that she got Covid from an unvaccinated person? Again with statistics I heard 96% of medical doctors are vaccinated. @90% + of Covid patients in hospitals are unvaccinated. That hospitals are so busy that critical "elective" surgery is being delayed. Some people will die because of this. Scientist are saying that Covid can continue to mutate with all the unvaccinated. What are the odds that it mutates into something even worse? Worse then the Delta strain. How much of a possibility does it have to be before we mandate all get vaccinated to prevent that? 1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 1000? Instead of responsible people living in a bubble to protect themselves. How about the irresponsible live in the bubble and allow the others to enjoy the fruits of living in a society where we have a social compact that includes sometimes doing what is best for society. Living in a civilized society means a lot of things are not allowed. Drinking and driving, street racing.......A pandemic should be dealt with by science not personal feelings.

You just don't get it. In this country, and I am not exaggerating when I say this, you will literally have people SHOOT physicians and other healthcare providers if you try to force vaccinations on them. And it is not a small population that feels this way. It is a large enough population that I believe the police force of this country would have trouble enforcing a vaccine mandate (hell, how many of them refused to enforce a mask mandate - do you really believe they would force vaccines on people?) Who's going to go door to door and do that? Employers won't pick up the mantle for you either. I know plenty of owners of businesses, and none of them have any intention of "forcing" vaccination on their employees, no matter how they personally feel about vaccinations. They all believe there are enough nutjobs out there that doing so would put them and their employees in danger of something like a shooting.


And regarding abortion - the "people" that are at risk are the unborn children that don't have a voice to speak for themselves. How many babies have you personally delivered? I have hundreds of deliveries under my belt, and that experience really changes your perspective on the argument. Anyone that believes that life only begins "at the first breath" has never had the joy/privilege of being in a delivery room, or even being around a pregnant woman and feeling her child kick.

 

[shinytop]

It is so ironic that you make dire threats of what would happen if people are forced to save lives. Scaring people is right out of the far right play book. I agree door to door would not be good. But employers need to enforce the vaccination of their employees. Businesses need to be checking vax status of patrons. The law enforcement would be no worse than checking for the sale of alcoholic beverages to the underaged. While that may not technically be "forced" vaccination it is the step a responsible nation would make. We have some strong hypocrisy going on in leadership now. I would lay bets that most Republican leaders and law makers have been vaccinated but are still making anti-vax moves to gain votes. Think DeSantis, the morally reprehensible leader who has picked up the name DeathSantis.

Oh, and trotting out your degrees when making points about political issues is pathetic.

 

[bkp_duke]

It is so ironic that you make dire threats of what would happen if people are forced to save lives. Scaring people is right out of the far right play book. I agree door to door would not be good. But employers need to enforce the vaccination of their employees. Businesses need to be checking vax status of patrons. The law enforcement would be no worse than checking for the sale of alcoholic beverages to the underaged. While that may not technically be "forced" vaccination it is the step a responsible nation would make. We have some strong hypocrisy going on in leadership now. I would lay bets that most Republican leaders and law makers have been vaccinated but are still making anti-vax moves to gain votes. Think DeSantis, the morally reprehensible leader who has picked up the name DeathSantis.

Oh, and trotting out your degrees when making points about political issues is pathetic.

You feel that way, you volunteer to go enforce vaccination on people. Let us know how that works out for you, boomer.

 

[scottf200]

I would lay bets that most Republican leaders and law makers have been vaccinated but are still making anti-vax moves to gain votes. Think DeSantis, the morally reprehensible leader who has picked up the name DeathSantis.

Florida reported 1554 deaths yesterday. Obviously they are intentionally obfuscating with their changed methods.
https://newsnodes.com/us_state/FL

 

[msm859]

You just don't get it. In this country, and I am not exaggerating when I say this, you will literally have people SHOOT physicians and other healthcare providers if you try to force vaccinations on them. And it is not a small population that feels this way. It is a large enough population that I believe the police force of this country would have trouble enforcing a vaccine mandate (hell, how many of them refused to enforce a mask mandate - do you really believe they would force vaccines on people?) Who's going to go door to door and do that? Employers won't pick up the mantle for you either. I know plenty of owners of businesses, and none of them have any intention of "forcing" vaccination on their employees, no matter how they personally feel about vaccinations. They all believe there are enough nutjobs out there that doing so would put them and their employees in danger of something like a shooting.


And regarding abortion - the "people" that are at risk are the unborn children that don't have a voice to speak for themselves. How many babies have you personally delivered? I have hundreds of deliveries under my belt, and that experience really changes your perspective on the argument. Anyone that believes that life only begins "at the first breath" has never had the joy/privilege of being in a delivery room, or even being around a pregnant woman and feeling her child kick.

I am not suggesting you "force" vaccinations. I am suggesting we isolate those who refuse to be vaccinated. Must be vaccinated to fly, ride a train, go to a sporting event, concert, work at a school, medical facility - as MANY places you can. "Encourage" those who are hesitant. I am an employer and have no problem requiring an employee to be vaccinated. Why should I put myself or other employees, clients at risk.

As to abortion, at what time is that an unborn "child"? When it is a zygote, fetus, or viable as Roe v Wade said? I am not pro abortion, I am pro choice. I t is unfortunate that any woman has to make that tough choice. I would like to see a world where there were no abortions. The first step is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. We should have free birth control on every street corner and better sex education. But for those cases Roe v Wade was the correct decision. I have 3 granddaughters and hope they never have to face that decision, but if they do it can only be them to do so.

 

[scottf200]

But employers need to enforce the vaccination of their employees. ...
While that may not technically be "forced" vaccination it is the step a responsible nation would make.

Walgreens was recently added to the list in the article below. It seems like this is the only way some will do it ... and they have other options if they don't want to.

Walgreens example:

Major companies requiring vaccines for workers

All the major companies requiring vaccines for workers

With the highly-contagious Delta variant sweeping across the country, Corporate America is putting its foot down.

fortune.com

From McDonald's to Goldman Sachs, here are the companies mandating vaccines for all or some employees

A nationwide spike in coronavirus cases is pushing companies to implement vaccine policies for some workers.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[winfield100]

You feel that way, you volunteer to go enforce vaccination on people. Let us know how that works out for you, boomer.

so what exactly is your solution?
forced vaccinations seems out, at present,

the unvaccinated are forcing the hands of the vaccinated by their recalcitrance, causing the actual collapse of medical systems, and outcomes may not be to anyone’s liking.

may i remind you of a line from a doctors oath
”……I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure….”

 

[bkp_duke]

so what exactly is your solution?
forced vaccinations seems out, at present,

the unvaccinated are forcing the hands of the vaccinated by their recalcitrance, causing the actual collapse of medical systems, and outcomes may not be to anyone’s liking.

may i remind you of a line from a doctors oath
”……I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure….”

You make it seem that the vaccinated are helpless. That's a drastic over-dramatization, especially with vaccines that are as good as the mRNA vaccines (literally, some of the best vaccines efficacy rates we have seen for any vaccine, in history). The risk to the vaccinated is VERY low, as is evidenced by the VAST VAST majority of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. Boosters are coming for anyone that wants that "extra layer" of protection.

I'm pro-vaccine, so I'm all for people getting the jab and moving on with their lives. But if they don't, they are making a (stupid) choice, and they need to live with the consequences, even if this leads to their early demise. Perhaps their family members will learn from their loved one's mistakes. Forcing the vaccine on them will never sway anyone, and will likely cause just as bad of consequences down the line in terms of creating an ever larger anti-vax population to deal with in the future (seems none of you are thinking about this).

And yes, I'm suffering from "empathy fatigue" and I'm not even treating patients anymore. I can only image how bad it is for those on the front lines now.

 

[jerry33]

You make it seem that the vaccinated are helpless. That's a drastic over-dramatization, especially with vaccines that are as good as the mRNA vaccines (literally, some of the best vaccines efficacy rates we have seen for any vaccine, in history). The risk to the vaccinated is VERY low, as is evidenced by the VAST VAST majority of those hospitalized and dying are the unvaccinated. Boosters are coming for anyone that wants that "extra layer" of protection.

I'm pro-vaccine, so I'm all for people getting the jab and moving on with their lives. But if they don't, they are making a (stupid) choice, and they need to live with the consequences, even if this leads to their early demise. Perhaps their family members will learn from their loved one's mistakes. Forcing the vaccine on them will never sway anyone, and will likely cause just as bad of consequences down the line in terms of creating an ever larger anti-vax population to deal with in the future (seems none of you are thinking about this).

And yes, I'm suffering from "empathy fatigue" and I'm not even treating patients anymore. I can only image how bad it is for those on the front lines now.

My subjective self agrees with you that they've made their bed. My objective self says they are still people.

As far as being helpless, yes, that pretty much sums it up. I can't get a third dose because I'm not in the group that is allowed to get them--even though I know it would really help prevent me from getting the disease (assuming I still mask up with N95, practice social distancing, and wash hand frequently). Here they are requiring written proof that you are qualified (so you can't just lie and get the third shot).

I'm having some remodeling done right now and the workers don't wear masks and may not be vaccinated, so I'm sitting in a room masked up with the IQ medical air filter running and the door closed. There's still air from the HVAC coming in, so I'm not perfectly safe. Now I could sit in the X with the bio-defense activated, but then I'd have to type on the phone.

I do agree that just forcing people would probably be negative, but short of forcing them there are things that could be done. For example, there could be a mandate that required vaccination to enter a business, school, or government office. Just show your vaccine passport and enter. The way it was taught to me was "Your right to swing your fist ends at the other person's nose".

 

[DarkandStormy]

You make it seem that the vaccinated are helpless.

You seem to have misread the point, I believe.

ICUs are full and there are very few hospital beds left in several states. At least five states have implemented "crisis standards of care" in the last week or so. This is all because these states are overrun with covid patients, who as you pointed out, are mostly unvaccinated.

There have been plenty of anecdotes of "this person who had _____ ended up dying because they couldn't get the care they needed." Purely because either a lack of bed space or lack of staffing - all directly from those who refuse to get vaxxed.

 

[madodel]

My subjective self agrees with you that they've made their bed. My objective self says they are still people.

As far as being helpless, yes, that pretty much sums it up. I can't get a third dose because I'm not in the group that is allowed to get them--even though I know it would really help prevent me from getting the disease (assuming I still mask up with N95, practice social distancing, and wash hand frequently). Here they are requiring written proof that you are qualified (so you can't just lie and get the third shot).

I'm having some remodeling done right now and the workers don't wear masks and may not be vaccinated, so I'm sitting in a room masked up with the IQ medical air filter running and the door closed. There's still air from the HVAC coming in, so I'm not perfectly safe. Now I could sit in the X with the bio-defense activated, but then I'd have to type on the phone.

I do agree that just forcing people would probably be negative, but short of forcing them there are things that could be done. For example, there could be a mandate that required vaccination to enter a business, school, or government office. Just show your vaccine passport and enter. The way it was taught to me was "Your right to swing your fist ends at the other person's nose".

I agree 100%, but sadly I don't see any of those measures being implemented in most of this country because the leadership in those places has politicized this public health disaster and instead of genuinely leading they are just doing whatever they can to stay ahead of the pack of insane rabid minions who just want to believe in lies. It keeps reminding me of an acronym from my long ago nursing days that would appear on the chart of an exceptionally stupid patient's chart, and would certainly never be used today. TSTL. Too Stupid To Live. Not sure if that applies more to the anti-vax/anti-mask people or the leaders who egg them on just for votes and to stay in front of the mobs. But we are seeing that play out everyday now.

In Germany the government implemented a system based on metrics that required everyone going into a business to be tested if the case count in that state was above a certain number. They provided free tests and the results were good for 24 hours. Germans went along with it because it was explained to them how this would help, and when the numbers went down the testing requirement went away. Now that they are in their 4th wave the government is no longer providing the free tests. Why? Because now there is vaccination. So now if you want to go to a movie or a concert you either pay for a test or you just get vaccinated for free. And get this they have a digital system to verify your vaccination and test result status. Can you envision a world where the government isn't out to kill people just to be popular? It really does exist. Just not in the USA.

 

[scottf200]

I'm having some remodeling done right now and the workers don't wear masks and may not be vaccinated, so I'm sitting in a room masked up with the IQ medical air filter running and the door closed. There's still air from the HVAC coming in, so I'm not perfectly safe. Now I could sit in the X with the bio-defense activated, but then I'd have to type on the phone.

Aside: If I were you I would at least have my bathroom fan running to get some level of fresh air coming in from any gaps and outside doors opening and closing.

IL / IDPH put this out several months ago.

 

[jerry33]

Aside: If I were you I would at least have my bathroom fan running to get some level of fresh air coming in from any gaps and outside doors opening and closing.

IL / IDPH put this out several months ago.

There are three running 45 cfm each

 

[Doggydogworld]

The reported death rate from COVID in the US is about 0.15% of the entire population and the 1918 flu pandemic killed about 0.64% of the population.

Worldometers says 686k dead, 0.2066% of US population. And while I'm pretty sure the 1918 pandemic is over, Covid still has room to run. Deaths from all causes data indicates at least 100k of Covid undercount, putting us close to 0.25% by Halloween when this wave hopefully ends.

 

[madodel]

FDA vaccine advisory panel rejects Pfizer's booster request for 16 and older.

 

[EVNow]

King county has an interesting proposal.

Basically, if you don't want to get vaccinated - show us that you are not infected.

King County announces new vaccination, testing policy for restaurants, gyms, theaters

Officials with Washington state's largest county announced Thursday that starting next month anyone attending an outdoor event in King County where 500 or more people are present will be required to be fully vaccinated for COVID-19 or present proof of a negative test in order to attend the event.

 

[bkp_duke]

King county has an interesting proposal.

Basically, if you don't want to get vaccinated - show us that you are not infected.

King County announces new vaccination, testing policy for restaurants, gyms, theaters

I need to go invest in lab stocks . . .

 

[EVNow]

Then I mis-read your statement. This: "We should definitely consider overall covid affect on the society and family." To me that sounded like a strong prelude to forced vaccination.

No - I was talking about - when considering whether the booster or vaccine should be approved / added to guidance - we should look at not only the effect on the individual but also on others in society.

The same way we look at traffic laws. We don't just look at what happens to the person driving - but also what the driver can do to others on the road.

 

[EVNow]

When society deems that their needs outweigh the rights of the individual, we have then hit full-bore communism.

I want to comment on this misconception. It is not communism - but authoritarianism. That authoritarianism can be left (like communism) or right wing.

Today the world over - there are 2 or 3 left-wing authoritarian regimes. But over 100 right wing authoritarian governments. Yet, we have been brainwashed in this country to think communism when they mean authoritarian - they don't think of obvious right-wing examples like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Chile under Pinochet, Turkey, Philippines, Russia, India or even Israel.

The Political Compass

A typology of political opinions plotted on 2 dimensions: economic and social.

www.politicalcompass.org

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Boosters are approved unanimously by VRBPAC for Pfizer vaccines, for age 65 and older, and for individuals at high risk of severe COVID-19, 6 months after the primary series.

Hooray.

I would like to see additional coverage for healthcare workers as well, given the current stress - and also doubly-vaccinated individuals are likely to spread asymptomatically to their extremely vulnerable patients. It's not clear whether or not any more votes will be taken on those topics.

It sounds like ACIP can fine tune these recommendations (and include healthcare workers), though I don't know how healthcare workers could be generally deemed to be at high risk of severe COVID-19. Though it's subject to debate.

Practically speaking this will lead to a lot of third-dose coverage, since it brings co-morbidities (in addition to the prior immunocompromised individuals) into the picture. Many Americans have co-morbidities and are at high risk of severe COVID-19.

Apparently FDA has to ability to fine tune the exact details of their approval based on the VRBPAC vote, so the EUA will likely include healthcare workers.

It sounds like they are going to include people at high risk of occupational exposure.

EDIT: They have unanimously (on a non-voting poll question whatever that is), have also approved the Pfizer booster for healthcare and others (like teachers) with high occupational exposure risk.

ACIP will probably flesh it out next week.