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Re: "you suggest" ---
it seemed he was quoting things from a comment section of the articles


Update: I'm fine with insurance companies charging more for the folks unvaccinated by choice (vs medical reasons) ... our health insurance jumped $100+ / month with your re-signup on ACA from 2021 to 2022 coverage. We know there are a handful of companies that have shared cost with their employees that are charging unvaccinated more. Imagine the cost of multiple weeks of unvaccinated in an ICU.
correct, i was quoting from comments
 
Most, if not all, insurances (at least in CA and MI) stopped paying for COVID related care long ago—regardless of vaccination status.
The only thing free now is the actual COVID test if referred by a doctor, but then you need to pay the copay for the doctor’s referral.

I do know, though, the American Recovery Act 2021 reduced cost of exchange-purchased medical insurance. (Maybe not, though, if you’re making over $200K).
 
Is there much data regarding transmittal of the virus to others between those who are vaccinated versus who are not?

Anecdotally, I received Delta after two shots (no prior covid infection). I passed it on to my wife who was also vaccinated, two shots.

Kids in household tested negative on PCR tests.

Followup antibody tests for them also showed as negative.

Go figure.
 
Most, if not all, insurances (at least in CA and MI) stopped paying for COVID related care long ago—regardless of vaccination status.
The only thing free now is the actual COVID test if referred by a doctor, but then you need to pay the copay for the doctor’s referral.

I do know, though, the American Recovery Act 2021 reduced cost of exchange-purchased medical insurance. (Maybe not, though, if you’re making over $200K).
Most insurances stopped their prior practice of waiving all copays and deductibles for covid treatment earlier in 2021. However, insurance still covers covid treatment (hospitalization and other services) per the terms of your policy. You just have to pay the copays and deductibles now.

Sidenote - WHAT A WONDERFUL SYSTEM /s
 
Anecdotally, I received Delta after two shots (no prior covid infection). I passed it on to my wife who was also vaccinated, two shots.

Kids in household tested negative on PCR tests.

Followup antibody tests for them also showed as negative.

Go figure.

But how severe was the illness?


Most people seem to be under the impression that vaccines are designed to completely stop transmission of a virus. Unfortunately that's not their primary design goal. Design goals are typically (in descending order):

1) reduce mortality
2) reduce morbidity (i.e. lasting complications if you get sick)
3) reduce likelihood of getting infected


We are also several generations out now from the original virus, which has a very different molecular structure on key proteins. To be honest, I'm surprised that the vaccines are as effective as they are still, it is a testament to the engineering behind them. If this were influenza, it would be like hoping the H1N1 vaccine also covers the swine flu.
 
But how severe was the illness?


Most people seem to be under the impression that vaccines are designed to completely stop transmission of a virus. Unfortunately that's not their primary design goal. Design goals are typically (in descending order):

1) reduce mortality
2) reduce morbidity (i.e. lasting complications if you get sick)
3) reduce likelihood of getting infected


We are also several generations out now from the original virus, which has a very different molecular structure on key proteins. To be honest, I'm surprised that the vaccines are as effective as they are still, it is a testament to the engineering behind them. If this were influenza, it would be like hoping the H1N1 vaccine also covers the swine flu.

I get where you are coming from. I just stated factually what happened. I am glad I was vaccinated as was my wife at the time we got infected. Symptoms were very mild, I had far worse colds in prior years. Out of courtesy to all, we did isolate anyway afterwards.

I think to answer again the original post I replied to - you can definitely transmit covid after vaccination and/or receive it from those who are vaccinated.
 
- you can definitely transmit covid after vaccination and/or receive it from those who are vaccinated.

This is why I asked and am curious if there is much data from transmissibility studies comparing those who are vaccinated and those are not. Many who are advocating that vaccination is a personal health choice seem to understand their personal risk maybe higher without vaccination but do not agree that they add additional health risk to others. Does any data shed light on this one way or another?
 
I get where you are coming from. I just stated factually what happened. I am glad I was vaccinated as was my wife at the time we got infected. Symptoms were very mild, I had far worse colds in prior years. Out of courtesy to all, we did isolate anyway afterwards.

I think to answer again the original post I replied to - you can definitely transmit covid after vaccination and/or receive it from those who are vaccinated.

Thanks for the anecdote. Interesting to know that your kids didn’t get it.

For my family, besides the obvious concern of possibly infecting grandparents (who are vaccinated), our kids’ school requires all students and staff to show a negative PCR COVID test with even the most minor of symptoms (doesn’t matter whether if it was from COVID or cold). So, we’re always very cautious because even a minor symptom means at least a couple days out of school.

Masks and temp checks for students and staff every morning and at school end. Parents cannot even go into school buildings as well. The positive to all this is that it’s reassuring to know chance of catching COVID from school is very low. No COVID cases yet and no one at school with a cold or flu, either (*knock on wood). Whereas, there’s a COVID case on a weekly basis at the public schools in our area.
And, no crazy anti-mask, anti-vaccine parents at school meetings.
 
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It has never been claimed that the vaccine (including booster) offer full protection against infection with the virus, but they do drastically reduce the chances of developing serious and life threatening symptom

I believe that is pretty much what was initially claimed, vaccine was supposed to be key to herd immunity, significantly stopping transmission, not just deaths. Transmission is much higher threshold to pass than not-dying (by 2 or 3 orders of magnitudes). This is not a speculation .. this claim of vaccine based immunity was widely made by both politicians and experts.

What you describe is however correct about what we now know about vaccine, but it is definitely not what was promised/expected. At this point it should really be called "periodic preventative COVID treatment for vulnerable individuals".

I think it important to measure how accurate previous predictions were, because it allows us to estimate predictive accuracy of currently offered expert opinions.
 
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BNO Newsroom: Belgium has released a detailed report on the new coronavirus variant. You can read it here:

Situation in South Africa
South Africa has one of the best genomic surveillance systems around the world, fueled by outstanding scientists and a very efficient network of collaborating laboratories. The data they share with the world is of outermost importance. Most other countries in the African continent still have very limited capacity to accurately and quickly identify emerging public health threats, and this situation should be regarded as a major problem at the global level.
_ South Africa is now experiencing a fourth wave of SARS-CoV-2 infections. The two last waves were caused by variants of concern, namely Beta (first described in South-Africa) and Delta (first described in India). The current wave is caused by a new variant of concern which has very recently been characterised as B.1.1.529 or variant Nu (Figure 1). This resurgence of infections occurs in the context of the summer (Southern Hemisphere) and of low baseline circulation of the Delta variant, suggesting that the new variant might be more transmissible than the Delta variant.
 
But how severe was the illness?


Most people seem to be under the impression that vaccines are designed to completely stop transmission of a virus. Unfortunately that's not their primary design goal. Design goals are typically (in descending order):

1) reduce mortality
2) reduce morbidity (i.e. lasting complications if you get sick)
3) reduce likelihood of getting infected


We are also several generations out now from the original virus, which has a very different molecular structure on key proteins. To be honest, I'm surprised that the vaccines are as effective as they are still, it is a testament to the engineering behind them. If this were influenza, it would be like hoping the H1N1 vaccine also covers the swine flu.

I fully agree that this low level of vaccine efficacy was predictable... even before COVID19, coronavirus in general was always very expensive to economy and there were many attempts to develop vaccine that did not really pan out. (I used to get cold 4 times a year losing lots of billable time and would gladly pay $100/yr for corona and/or rhinovirus vaccine, even yearly one. )

What you describe however is not what was communicated about vaccine by public officials, especially in context of targeting populations which are unlikely to experience any of 3 benefits that you have listed to a significant degree - for example my kids.

Everyone was encouraged to vaccinate to stop transmission. I found it very disconcerting that it was told even though it was predictably misleading.
I think this misleading messaging is what really killed public trust .. I know it killed mine.
 
Now, three confirmed cases in Israel.
All three were vaccinated.
Hong Kong reports that both of its new variant cases are of foreign travelers.

One South African traveler staying at the mandatory inbound travel quarantine hotel was infected and subsequently passed it onto another foreign guest staying in a room right across the hall.

Both were vaccinated as well.
 
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Everyone was encouraged to vaccinate to stop transmission. I found it very disconcerting that it was told even though it was predictably misleading.
I think this misleading messaging is what really killed public trust .. I know it killed mine.
Studies showed the vaccine did, in fact, greatly reduce infections. After a period of months the levels of antibodies circulating in the blood reduced to the point where it became less effective at preventing infections (but still highly effective at reducing severe illness due to memory B cells that make more antibodies after a new infection takes hold and from T cells).

The booster shots bring back the original high level of infection immunity, at least for a few more months and possibly a bit longer than after the 2nd dose.

There was discussion from very early on in the vaccinations about the uncertainty of how long the high level of protection from infection would last.
 
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. So, this whole process should take a max of 6 weeks.
Pfizer says it will take 100 days - pending regulatory approval. And their plan is to use results of safety/efficacy trials on Delta and Beta to speed approval of any booster.



this claim of vaccine based immunity was widely made by both politicians and experts.

The efficacy claimed in the trials against ancestral and alpha symptomatic DISEASE (not infection) was 94-95%, not including immunocompromised who were not included in the original trial. How is that offering full protection against infection?

Since then, there has been Delta, which changed the game since it overpowers low antibody levels, and waning.

There was a lot of discussion very early on by the CDC and public health people that it may not prevent infection. So it’s not true that a wonderful miracle was promised by medical authorities (politicians and the media promised otherwise of course).

I think what was least discussed early on was the possibility and likelihood of waning. It sounds like this was well known by many immunologists that three doses would be needed, but not advertised as likely (which would have been helpful to defuse statements like yours). Even so, there WAS some discussion about this at the time - many people advocated longer spacing between shots to boost protection and help the initial rollout, back in December 2020. Unfortunate. Though in their defense, waning is more slow when dealing with ancestral virus (roughly half of waning seems to be due to Delta)

I don’t think the messaging from knowledgeable health & medical experts has been as bad as you state. I think it hasn’t been perfect, but I have not lost faith in those who speak directly about efficacy and what the shots do. (Agencies like CDC are another matter, but it was predictable that their messaging would be imperfect due to bureaucratic bungling.)

At this point it should really be called “periodic preventative COVID treatment for vulnerable individuals".

This is way worse messaging than anything I have seen from the CDC. The vaccine provides substantial and clear benefits for healthy individuals against all variants prior to 1.1.529, and very, very likely provides a lot of benefit there too (will be good to know ASAP). The COVID cranks were talking about T-cell cross protection 18 months ago, so the least they could do is accept that the vaccines will at a minimum do that! Of all the people in this pandemic, I feel the COVID cranks have really let me down the most with their inaccuracy and inconsistency. Really disappointing.
 
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Vaccines should be for older people and people with underlying health conditions. The chances of someone dying from corona otherwise is <1%. Cdc/fda/politicians who are pushin the mandate and even that idiot fauci completely ignore natural immunity even though it is known to protect you longer than the vaccine. Vaccine vaccine vaccine. It's the end all be all cure blah blah blah. We've got money to make and people's livelihoods to ruin!

The people have lost all trust in the powers that are runnin this country. Promises aren't kept, our $ value is crap, inflation is at an all time high along with so many other things. Religious and medical exemptions aren't even being considered for the most part. Those poor individuals who have been forced to quit due to their choice of not wanting the jab are unfortunately SOL, especially since this mandate will be dead at some point but their jobs are done for. Military folks who are dishonorably discharged for not wanting the jab, their status will probably stay as that even after the mandate is dismissed. C19 isn't going anywhere. We just have to adapt and live with it and take whatever precautionary measures that make sense to the individual. There is no blanket treatment that works for everyone but all treatments should be considered as a possible treatment. So much wrong with this country.
 
Pfizer says it will take 100 days - pending regulatory approval. And their plan is to use results of safety/efficacy trials on Delta and Beta to speed approval of any booster.





The efficacy claimed in the trials against ancestral and alpha symptomatic DISEASE (not infection) was 94-95%, not including immunocompromised who were not included in the original trial. How is that offering full protection against infection?

Since then, there has been Delta, which changed the game since it overpowers low antibody levels, and waning.

There was a lot of discussion very early on by the CDC and public health people that it may not prevent infection. So it’s not true that a wonderful miracle was promised by medical authorities (politicians and the media promised otherwise of course).

I think what was least discussed early on was the possibility and likelihood of waning. It sounds like this was well known by many immunologists that three doses would be needed, but not advertised as likely (which would have been helpful to defuse statements like yours). Even so, there WAS some discussion about this at the time - many people advocated longer spacing between shots to boost protection and help the initial rollout, back in December 2020. Unfortunate. Though in their defense, waning is more slow when dealing with ancestral virus (roughly half of waning seems to be due to Delta)

I don’t think the messaging from knowledgeable health & medical experts has been as bad as you state. I think it hasn’t been perfect, but I have not lost faith in those who speak directly about efficacy and what the shots do. (Agencies like CDC are another matter, but it was predictable that their messaging would be imperfect due to bureaucratic bungling.)



This is way worse messaging than anything I have seen from the CDC. The vaccine provides substantial and clear benefits for healthy individuals against all variants prior to 1.1.529, and very, very likely provides a lot of benefit there too (will be good to know ASAP). JFC, the COVID cranks were talking about T-cell cross protection 18 months ago, so the least they could do is accept that the vaccines will at a minimum do that! Of all the people in this pandemic, I feel the COVID cranks have really let me down the most with their inaccuracy and inconsistency. Really disappointing.

Nice.
I can look forward to a 4th COVID shot in about 5-6 months.
 
Vaccines should be for older people and people with underlying health conditions. The chances of someone dying from corona otherwise is <1%. Cdc/fda/politicians who are pushin the mandate and even that idiot fauci completely ignore natural immunity even though it is known to protect you longer than the vaccine. Vaccine vaccine vaccine. It's the end all be all cure blah blah blah. We've got money to make and people's livelihoods to ruin!

The people have lost all trust in the powers that are runnin this country. Promises aren't kept, our $ value is crap, inflation is at an all time high along with so many other things. Religious and medical exemptions aren't even being considered for the most part. Those poor individuals who have been forced to quit due to their choice of not wanting the jab are unfortunately SOL, especially since this mandate will be dead at some point but their jobs are done for. Military folks who are dishonorably discharged for not wanting the jab, their status will probably stay as that even after the mandate is dismissed. C19 isn't going anywhere. We just have to adapt and live with it and take whatever precautionary measures that make sense to the individual. There is no blanket treatment that works for everyone but all treatments should be considered as a possible treatment. So much wrong with this country.
Ok dude, turn off right-wing media. The time you've wasted rotting your brain on right wing media and social media convincing yourself you don't need the shot is far larger than the time it would take to just get the shot.