Corporate espionage - does BMW know more about Tesla than we do?

[trayloader]

BMW is f***ed anyway.
They lost their complete i team.
Everyone. From head of design, to all the engineers, to project heads.
They cannot make up their minds.
Now they electrify the 3 series and Mini, to be able to continue with gas guzzling 7 series, M6, X6 and Rolls Royce.

In the end no one has an Elon at their helm, nor (even more important)
Franz and JB.
Look just how ugly all those prototypes are from the competition.

 

[calisnow]

BMW is f***ed anyway.
They lost their complete i team.
Everyone. From head of design, to all the engineers, to project heads.
.

They did?

 

[trayloader]

BMW Loses Core Development Team of Its i3 and i8 Electric Vehicle Line

 

[riemannh]

Not directly related to the OP's post, but a family I stayed with near Bologna drove a nice mid-end sports car with an exotic's chassis and engine underneath for testing. It surprised me the lengths they went to in order to quietly street-test designs. I was told, though, that this was, in no small part, also to reduce consumers seeing the vehicle on the road a year or more before they can buy it.

I gathered there is a fair amount of nosing around in competitors' business (as other posters noted). My hosts also noted that there's little hiding big purchases of materials/parts if major design changes are occurring and production is actually starting.

 

[shrspeedblade]

Won't we all be surprised to find out there are a number of Model 3 mules wandering around in Model S disguise! They keep trotting out the cars from the unveil occasionally so everyone is looking for the wrong thing!

Seems like it would almost be easier to do with the skateboard type build of Tesla vehicles.

 

[kort677]

Anyone well versed in how much corporate spying goes on in the auto industry? I

is espionage really necessary?
have you ever considered that competitors do reverse engineering to unlock the "secrets" that their competitors employ in their cars?

 

[seclinton]

I wouldn't call it spying, I'd call it trade theft. I watched as Mercedes Benz (Daimler) went into the Johnson Controls-SAFT battery factories in Nersac France and later Holland Michigan. They wanted every detail on how batteries were made. They demanded the ability to walk the lines and review every piece of data.

The French let them do it, and so did our American counterparts to a point. In holland (Michigan), we denied any customer access to our mfg clean room space. They could only tour and see some data but not all.

Ohh the benz guys were pissed. I remember them asking me about exhaust rates and dust collection. It was some serious trolling for trade secrets. I declined to disclose and they escalated to my management. I argued there was no business case for some of the questions they were asking, and won that argument.

Guess who went off and decided to build their own batteries in Germany. Yup...those guys


Spying, trade theft, industrial learnings, I'm not sure any of it was criminal, but on more than one occasion it smelled funny

 

[calisnow]

is espionage really necessary?
have you ever considered that competitors do reverse engineering to unlock the "secrets" that their competitors employ in their cars?

You have some kind of personality disorder - combining a mental blank spot where your sense of humor should be with an extra large irritability gland.

The question was not whether espionage is necessary - it is whether or not it exists. Have I considered whether reverse engineering exists? Of course but that isn't relevant to the question either. And your hostile tone ("have you ever considered"...which implies that I don't think) is, as usual, random, uncalled for and lacking context.

 

[jbcarioca]

is espionage really necessary?
have you ever considered that competitors do reverse engineering to unlock the "secrets" that their competitors employ in their cars?

Yes, 'espionage' is necessary. Reverse engineering only works after production is mature and customer cars are being delivered. 'espionage' because much of the data they want is available by judicious observation of parts ordering, RFP's and the like, especially among Tier One suppliers. Frankly, every automaker uses Tier One suppliers expensively, so any manufacturer can ask for quotes and/or planning details on any subject taht interests them, from transmissions, engines, batteries to instrumentation. There are few real secrets otehr than packaging and forward planning, most of which is semi-public anyway.

The 'espionage' is primarily to find information that design, engineering, marketing and finance staff just haven't the time and/or skill to do. Every major automaker has JV's with other builders for myriad purposes including engines, transmissions and BEV components.

Tesla itself would never have had the Model S without Daimler-Benz and Bosch as anybody who looks at switchgear and parts suppliers can see. For that matter the company would not exist had it not been for early support from Toyota and DB, both of whom benefitted from Tesla knowledge for the RAV4-EV and the B-class EV among other things.

So, chances are several posters in this thread have considered your point, and at least two of us actually have direct experience with the subject.

 

[jbcarioca]

I wouldn't call it spying, I'd call it trade theft . .. They demanded the ability to walk the lines and review every piece of data.

...

Guess who went off and decided to build their own batteries in Germany. Yup...those guys


Spying, trade theft, industrial learnings, I'm not sure any of it was criminal, but on more than one occasion it smelled funny

Pretty typical, in my experience. I have always found that asking direct questions almost always gets direct answers, even when the intentions to build competitive facilities have been disclosed. I recall one factory visit to a then state-of-the-art facility when the team I was with told the hosts we were planning to build a new facility and wanted to know just how they achieved their world-beating quality and efficiency. Although we did not represent a US company we staffed our team with 100% people who could pass as Americans. Why? Most people who have leading technology think we're probably to stupid to understand. More recent German efforts have been using US accented people for that reason.

There are so many stories! Tesla really has few process secrets. They buy quasi-off-the-shelf robots, then apply clever programming. Their presses are standard. Almost all the parts are generic. Their paint shop is deployed a bit differently than most, partly due to California emissions rules, but coating people tell me it is state-of-the-art but not beyond. Almost nobody else really has such secrets either. Automotive News is fairly good at giving/obtaining enough clues that intelligent people can know what is happening.

Of course one can be different. Falcon Doors, anybody?

 

[kort677]

You have some kind of personality disorder - combining a mental blank spot where your sense of humor should be with an extra large irritability gland.

The question was not whether espionage is necessary - it is whether or not it exists.

this arrogant response shows that your comprehension skills aren't especially good. I'll agree that the question wasn't originally was espionage necessary however I expanded the scope of the discussion to ASK if espionage was necessary considering how relatively it is to reverse engineer a product. I guess that your being such a top expert on the subject precludes your ability to discuss rationally the topic with someone who doesn't share your level of expertise.
the bottom line is that for all I care you can shove your condescending attitude right up where the sun doesn't shine if there is enough room to share with your brains.

 

[jbcarioca]

You have some kind of personality disorder - combining a mental blank spot where your sense of humor should be with an extra large irritability gland.

The question was not whether espionage is necessary - it is whether or not it exists. Have I considered whether reverse engineering exists? Of course but that isn't relevant to the question either. And your hostile tone ("have you ever considered"...which implies that I don't think) is, as usual, random, uncalled for and lacking context.

this arrogant response shows that your comprehension skills aren't especially good. I'll agree that the question wasn't originally was espionage necessary however I expanded the scope of the discussion to ASK if espionage was necessary considering how relatively it is to reverse engineer a product. I guess that your being such a top expert on the subject precludes your ability to discuss rationally the topic with someone who doesn't share your level of expertise.
the bottom line is that for all I care you can shove your condescending attitude right up where the sun doesn't shine if there is enough room to share with your brains.

This dispute is not my business. However, civility is. We should manage to be respectful with each other despite our differing views.
Could to two of you please try to act like adults, and maintain a civil tone? We have enough stupidity in politics without having that happen here.
By coincidence, perhaps, I tend to like posts from both of you. Please don't force moderators to ban you both.