Cost of a Model 3 vs. ICE

[ℬête Noire]

Is this about numbers or emotions? The Chevy Bolt will collect all of the EV savings of a Tesla for pennies on the dollar. But then you are driving a Chevy....

This close to to the 220mi Model 3 I'd have a hard time buying the Bolt rather than just waiting it out until Spring, unless I wanted that hatch in the back and to sit higher w/the tall backseat roof. Although I've been told that there are some hungry dealerships with deep discounts. *shrug* Other than they aren't really comparable other than "both are BEVs". Just sitting in them screams "different vehicle"....and then you try to drive the Bolt further than 1.5hr from your house (pretty much anywhere in the US but parts of CA) and it's "DOH!"

Which brings us to:

Absolutely correct, however, I was trying to compare comparable models.

Have you done a test drive? Because it's a huge stretch to put "Charger" on such a list in an objective way. Then you get to trying to compare a new car to a used car, the later will be out of warranty much sooner, and pin-pointing some distant future time.

What's your usage look like? How much do you drive per day (commute?), how often to you go on road trips? What kind of driving do you see on weekends? You might consider hanging in for $40K 220mi Model 3 (with the premium upgrade package) next Spring, which makes the economics look a lot better.

 

[ℬête Noire]

I've unfortunately talked a few of my friends out of buying a Tesla for this very reason. If you're not in a financial position to buy the newest luxury on the block then please reconsider. I've also helped those same friends start a financial plan so they can be on a path to get one someday

Pretty much this. If you can't ever see yourself in a low, to mid-end "compact luxury" car, or at least a really trimmed up Camry or something, the Model 3 isn't the Tesla you're looking for. That one is another 4 years out....or getting your finances in better shape for a couple years out.

 

[MXWing]

This close to to the 220mi Model 3 I'd have a hard time buying the Bolt rather than just waiting it out until Spring, unless I wanted that hatch in the back and to sit higher w/the tall backseat roof. Although I've been told that there are some hungry dealerships with deep discounts. *shrug* Other than they aren't really comparable other than "both are BEVs". Just sitting in them screams "different vehicle"....and then you try to drive the Bolt further than 1.5hr from your house (pretty much anywhere in the US but parts of CA) and it's "DOH!"

Which brings us to:



Have you done a test drive? Because it's a huge stretch to put "Charger" on such a list in an objective way. Then you get to trying to compare a new car to a used car, the later will be out of warranty much sooner, and pin-pointing some distant future time.

What's your usage look like? How much do you drive per day (commute?), how often to you go on road trips? What kind of driving do you see on weekends? You might consider hanging in for $40K 220mi Model 3 (with the premium upgrade package) next Spring, which makes the economics look a lot better.

Cheapest Model 3 bang for the buck is going to be the used LR ones trading up.

Heard about one Tesla offer for 44K with one with EAP so a deal can be found that way.

35K Model 3 is as real as OJ finding the real killers for the foreseeable future.

 

[ℬête Noire]

35K Model 3 is as real as OJ findinf the real killers for the foreseeable future.

That's why I said $40K (which will be quite favourable product comparison to the Bolt Premier). Unless you don't think those are going to start ship in volume by end of Q1? Of course EAP throws a curve into that pricing, but at least that's available as a post-ship option if you are fine with old style CC to start.

I guess Tax Credit is going to make comparison on money tougher, though, since the GM will have their full Tax Credit still (assuming the program hasn't died on the floor of Congress by then).....and has it today, and you can have the Bolt Premier today. So It'll be about $36K net for the SR+PUP vs maybe street price of $32.5K for Bolt Premier. Still I think I'm only considering between the two if I'm confining myself to BEV.

 

[insaneoctane]

How do you figure pennies on the dollar? Bolts are not THAT cheap. That and its relatively terrible vs a Tesla for drives outside your immediate metro.

It's simple. You can get the ~$35K Bolt now while the tax incentive is at the full amount (UNLIKE the $35K Tesla) and Chevy will take less than MSRP (unlike Tesla). That works out to around $35K-$7.5K=$27.5K.... that's a lot less than I paid for my Model 3 (about 50 cents on the dollar)!

EDIT: Fixed math, thanks @Bete Noire

 

[ℬête Noire]

$35K-$7.5K=$25.5K....

*counts fingers, pulls off shoes and counts toes*

I believe sir that your math is a bit off. But yeah, you can drive off a new Bolt LT below $30K after accounting for the Tax Credit (if you have enough tax liability to use all of it), before any sales taxes etc. Just be aware of the limitations. It's not road trip vehicle, don't expect to rely on charging away from home (or you're very luck, work) and it pretty much feels like a $25K interior.

You'll make out like a bandit on fuel costs, though. If you're in that magic zone of driving over 40mi but under 150mi a day you'll blow away even the Prius Prime on fueling costs.

 

[insaneoctane]

This close to to the 220mi Model 3 I'd have a hard time buying the Bolt rather than just waiting it out until Spring, unless I wanted that hatch in the back and to sit higher w/the tall backseat roof. Although I've been told that there are some hungry dealerships with deep discounts. *shrug* Other than they aren't really comparable other than "both are BEVs". Just sitting in them screams "different vehicle"....and then you try to drive the Bolt further than 1.5hr from your house (pretty much anywhere in the US but parts of CA) and it's "DOH!"

Which brings us to:



Have you done a test drive? Because it's a huge stretch to put "Charger" on such a list in an objective way. Then you get to trying to compare a new car to a used car, the later will be out of warranty much sooner, and pin-pointing some distant future time.

What's your usage look like? How much do you drive per day (commute?), how often to you go on road trips? What kind of driving do you see on weekends? You might consider hanging in for $40K 220mi Model 3 (with the premium upgrade package) next Spring, which makes the economics look a lot better.

Interestingly, not only do I agree that I'd personally choose the Model 3 SR over the Bolt, but after deciding that, I simply chose to pay a somewhat unjustifiable premium and just got the current RWD car that I'm driving now!

 

[RedAntisocial]

As I near the deliver of my M3 RWD Tesla, my wife is having a little anxiety. I have tried to assure her that over the life of the vehicle it would be a savings. But she asks, "why can't we just get a $20,000 car?" I was averaging some costs of the ICE versus the Tesla and while the initial cost is obviously higher, I think the five year cost is less. If I figure the cost of $20,000, plus gas ($3 per gallon), other maintenance, plus higher registration, extended warranties, etc. The cost of a $20,000 car over 5 years is roughly $42,000. Wheras, the cost of a $50,000 Tesla, plus $3,500 for tax title license, cost of elect, future registration, it is less than $40,000. So the difference is marginal, but I am obviously getting a much nicer car.

Am I missing anything?

I've worked up a spreadsheet with the help of some folks here on the TMC (calculating residuals is beyond me). The values are in KM and Canadian $$, but you can do the conversions for just about anywhere. Link is in my signature.

All the prices in there currently are based on best quotes from my local car dealers (without haggling).

 

[ℬête Noire]

Interestingly, not only do I agree that I'd personally choose the Model 3 SR over the Bolt, but after deciding that, I simply chose to pay a somewhat unjustifiable premium and just got the current RWD car that I'm driving now!

Death by $5000 paper cuts.

April 2016 me: Musk can't fool me, no way I'll get out of this paying only $35K for my car. After taxes and everything I bet it'll be $45K on top of that $1K deposit. Yeah, I'm wise to the ways of the world. *pats self on the back*

June 2018 me:

 

[MXWing]

The Bolt LT or Premier not even close to the Model 3 in anyway other than modes of transport and there are travel limitations on the Bolt that doesn’t exist on the 3.

Problem with valuations is people focus too much on absolute vs relative terms.

A car practically given away like a Bolt requires it to be practically given away to get rid of it later.

Cachet value matters as well. That’s why people tell time on a Rolex when they can pull their iPhone X out.

While I heard the Bolt has roomier backseats, no one getting laid back there so not much benefit.

 

[P85_DA]

That’s why people tell time on a Rolex when they can pull their iPhone X out.

lol What Are You Wearing (WRUW) Today? Share a photo of your Tesla with your watch!

 

[rodrego66]

This close to to the 220mi Model 3 I'd have a hard time buying the Bolt rather than just waiting it out until Spring, unless I wanted that hatch in the back and to sit higher w/the tall backseat roof. Although I've been told that there are some hungry dealerships with deep discounts. *shrug* Other than they aren't really comparable other than "both are BEVs". Just sitting in them screams "different vehicle"....and then you try to drive the Bolt further than 1.5hr from your house (pretty much anywhere in the US but parts of CA) and it's "DOH!"

Which brings us to:



Have you done a test drive? Because it's a huge stretch to put "Charger" on such a list in an objective way. Then you get to trying to compare a new car to a used car, the later will be out of warranty much sooner, and pin-pointing some distant future time.

What's your usage look like? How much do you drive per day (commute?), how often to you go on road trips? What kind of driving do you see on weekends? You might consider hanging in for $40K 220mi Model 3 (with the premium upgrade package) next Spring, which makes the economics look a lot better.

My commute to work is relatively short, just 30 miles round trip, but at times I have to drive across town for meetings an other things. My vehicle is usually the one we take on weekends to different places. In the past, we rented cars for road trips, but might be using this as mileage doesn't seem to be as big of an issue. I can see waiting for the 220 mile model 3, but wanted to take advantage of the tax break.

 

[tpatana]

Don’t kid yourself. You are not buying a Tesla to save money. You buy a Tesla for the same reason you bought that early iPhone over a flip phone. It’s a glimpse of the future that you can buy and drive now. It is not the most cost effective or pragmatic option. That would be something like a Honda Fit or a Mazda 3.

Right.

Cost-wise, let's assume I drive the car 10 years.

For me after tax credit I paid very close to $52k. My current electricity use is ~$1/day, so 10 years lets round up to $4000. No clue on maintenance, let's throw total $6000 over the 10 years, including tires/brakes etc. So total $62k/10y.

For ice, you don't get anything comparable at $20k but anyway using it as OP said.

My gas before Tesla was ~$150/month, rouding $2k per year so $20k over 10. Tires/maintenance etc. maybe $10k total.

Now we're at $50k. So to save $1200/year or $100 a month you can drive used $20k car versus Tesla.

Quite no-brainer to me.

And with my calculations, $32k car would be same $62/10years. Go check the $32k cars at dealers, and compare to Tesla

 

[KenF]

Of course, there are other considerations as well, such as registration costs and insurance costs. In VA, registration is 4.15% of the purchase price and then most counties have an annual car (personal property) tax equal to 4-5% of vehicle value.

 

[voip-ninja]

Was just looking for a newer version of what I have now which is a Dodge Charger, used is just over $20,000

You are comparing a brand new luxury high tech car to an entry level used car.

Honestly if you or your wife are having these concerns you might not want to buy the Tesla, no cool car is worth being “car poor” or having relationship stress over an expensive purchase you both aren’t onboard with.

No amount of gas savings or maintenance savings is going to add up to a $20K plus price difference.

Do you qualify for the full tax credit?

You could always put the purchase off till the $35K version becomes available.

 

[rodrego66]

Right.

Cost-wise, let's assume I drive the car 10 years.

For me after tax credit I paid very close to $52k. My current electricity use is ~$1/day, so 10 years lets round up to $4000. No clue on maintenance, let's throw total $6000 over the 10 years, including tires/brakes etc. So total $62k/10y.

For ice, you don't get anything comparable at $20k but anyway using it as OP said.

My gas before Tesla was ~$150/month, rouding $2k per year so $20k over 10. Tires/maintenance etc. maybe $10k total.

Now we're at $50k. So to save $1200/year or $100 a month you can drive used $20k car versus Tesla.

Quite no-brainer to me.

And with my calculations, $32k car would be same $62/10years. Go check the $32k cars at dealers, and compare to Tesla

You are right, getting a $20K car probably was not accurate, in doing a little research since my original post, it would be more like a $28-30K.

So in my case I paid about $46K after tax rebate ($50K plus $3,500 in tax and fees). Using your numbers if I compared this to a $30K ICE I would pay $56K over 10 years. For a $30K ICE, with your numbers, I would be at $50K, add the tax and fees (assuming they were the same or similar) it is $53K, hardly a difference spread over 10 years.

 

[MXWing]

As I near the deliver of my M3 RWD Tesla, my wife is having a little anxiety. I have tried to assure her that over the life of the vehicle it would be a savings. But she asks, "why can't we just get a $20,000 car?" I was averaging some costs of the ICE versus the Tesla and while the initial cost is obviously higher, I think the five year cost is less. If I figure the cost of $20,000, plus gas ($3 per gallon), other maintenance, plus higher registration, extended warranties, etc. The cost of a $20,000 car over 5 years is roughly $42,000. Wheras, the cost of a $50,000 Tesla, plus $3,500 for tax title license, cost of elect, future registration, it is less than $40,000. So the difference is marginal, but I am obviously getting a much nicer car.

Am I missing anything?

You are driving the future - today.

And I’d rather have the total safety package up to and including a collision while in a Tesla.

Hard to cross shop those intangibles vs ANYTHING ELSE.

Don’t worry - my wife was wtf Model X? Cried when I sold her Audi Q5. Couldn’t believe she would ever be in a vehicle as expensive as the X.

She forgot about the Audi and thought the X is worth every penny.

 

[harry]

Is this about numbers or emotions? The Chevy Bolt will collect all of the EV savings of a Tesla for pennies on the dollar. But then you are driving a Chevy....

How do you figure pennies on the dollar? Bolts are not THAT cheap. That and its relatively terrible vs a Tesla for drives outside your immediate metro.

You know, we are the last people who should be creating FUD concerning any EV. The Bolt is nothing like the typical GM car. In fact, it is the tightest, quietest car I've driven in a long time -- not a single squeak, rub, tap, etc. anywhere in it. The suspension is tight and well controlled and the infotainment center is, in at least one aspect, far better than the current Tesla version (it NEVER forgets its place, even if you disconnect a USB stick and then reinsert it).

We drove a Bolt and a Model S together from Portland, Maine to Charlottetown, PEI. The range for the Bolt was insignificantly different from that of the Model S. The regen on the Bolt is stronger, with much better control of the degree of regen. The charging time for both cars were essentially the same -- CHAdeMO for the S and CCA for the Bolt. Both systems are equally available in most of the level 3 charging stations. I would drive a Bolt halfway across the U.S. with no more concern than with our Model S's.

We love our Teslas, and I'm certainly not saying that the Bolt is the equal of the Model 3 or any other Tesla Model, but then again, the Premier version is $32,000 in California after rebates, and the base model is $25k.. Lots of people could justify an EV that is in the cost range of a Camry intially, and as we know, the savings versus an ICE just continue to pile up the longer you drive an EV.

If we are trying to support the conversion of our transportation sector away from fossil fuels we just can't be making these condescending comments about EVs which are more affordable.

 

[Gavyne]

If you can afford a Model 3, my opinion is do it. There is no car like it, not in terms of range, power, s3xy aesthetics, and tech. Don't forget safety is ranked waay up there as well. Also at the moment, nobody else can compete with Tesla's supercharging network. It really is a car that has a bit of everything that caters to everybody.

Yes it costs a bit more, but you really don't want to settle for something less right now. Only to beat yourself up every time you see a Model 3 pass by you thinking you could've owned one. It's one thing if you can't afford it, or if you have to cut your 3 meals a day down to 2 just so you could buy one. If you can't afford a Model 3 then simply don't get it. But if you can afford it, do it, you won't regret it.

Early adopters always pay a bit more, but in exchange you get to play with the latest and greatest. If you really have to settle for less, please don't get an ICE car, go buy another BEV. These BEV's are simply better for your health and those around you, not to mention this little blue Earth.

 

[ℬête Noire]

We drove a Bolt and a Model S together from Portland, Maine to Charlottetown, PEI. The range for the Bolt was insignificantly different from that of the Model S. The regen on the Bolt is stronger, with much better control of the degree of regen. The charging time for both cars were essentially the same -- CHAdeMO for the S and CCA for the Bolt. Both systems are equally available in most of the level 3 charging stations. I would drive a Bolt halfway across the U.S. with no more concern than with our Model S's.

Last year when sizing up the Bolt I tried to work out just making a Houston to Dallas jump, and then up into OK (I have family there). It wasn't possible on L3 alone, it would involve L2 (as best I could tell, at 32A). That's not how I'd want to travel.

True I never dug much further than Texas, so maybe coverage is better outside of CA than I understood. And if you're good with capping your highway speed at around 60mph it's got pretty close to Model 3 efficiency, it's probably even a hair better than the Model 3 at in town speeds, so it's nominal 238mi range is real. Until Kona and Niro arrives it really is alone with Tesla in the category of "true" long range BEV.

Largely agree on your other points. I have no regrets trading in the Acura for the Bolt. It has a lot going for it, it's not a bad car in any way. It's definitely of the spritely EV nature, a lively little drive. The wife was very apprehensive about this whole "EV thing" but she's been very happy with it (she drives it a lot more than I do). It does work economics with the Tax Credit and the "a little more up front, come out ahead on the back-end" if you're driving the miles to make it up on fuel (and would be driving well past the end of a PHEV's battery range).

It is just tough to have it come out looking good against the not-yet-shipping Model 3 SR. I really hope it doesn't get caught in that weird place, I hope that the Model 3 halo lifts it more than hurts it, but it's not looking great right now since as far as I can tell GM is still refusing to put in effort to sell it.