Ouch ha ha. 48c a kW here in the Southern California Edison region-- Los Angeles County.
Cheaper after 10 pm, when our Teslas feed from the 240 volt 40 amp connection in our garage.
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cost per charge at home ??
- Thread starter jmanning
- Start date
Cheaper after 10 pm, when our Teslas feed from the 240 volt 40 amp connection in our garage.
I bought my first set of solar panels in 2003. Twelve Sharp 180 watt panels and a Sunny Boy inverter. Total out of pocket cost $12,300.
I showed my system to my neighbors, and told them I would have free electricity for life, and they said "When will it pay for itself?"
The one next door neighbor had 4 big pickup trucks. I did not ask him when his trucks would "pay for themselves."
My other neighbor added a bedroom on their home, after their two children moved out. AFTER their 2 children moved out. I did not ask them when their extra room "would pay for itself."
Stupid question "when will they pay for themselves."
Answer: "When you turn them on."
Add a room to your home-- value of investment 50% recapture of investment at sale. Add kitchen redo, 85%. Add swimming pool, 0$%. That is ZERO percent. Add solar panels, your recoup 100% of their cost, at the sale of your home.
"When do solar panels pay for themselves?"
When you turn them on.
Let's all drive on sunlight.
I showed my system to my neighbors, and told them I would have free electricity for life, and they said "When will it pay for itself?"
The one next door neighbor had 4 big pickup trucks. I did not ask him when his trucks would "pay for themselves."
My other neighbor added a bedroom on their home, after their two children moved out. AFTER their 2 children moved out. I did not ask them when their extra room "would pay for itself."
Stupid question "when will they pay for themselves."
Answer: "When you turn them on."
Add a room to your home-- value of investment 50% recapture of investment at sale. Add kitchen redo, 85%. Add swimming pool, 0$%. That is ZERO percent. Add solar panels, your recoup 100% of their cost, at the sale of your home.
"When do solar panels pay for themselves?"
When you turn them on.
Let's all drive on sunlight.
Solar adds about $20,000 to a house, it would seem regardless of size. Buyers may not be savvy enough to know the difference in PV sizing. If you want to be conservative, keep your system below the $20k mark.
I overbuilt my PV so I could drive the *sugar* out of my Tesla and not feel bad about it since the cost is already sunk.
I overbuilt my PV so I could drive the *sugar* out of my Tesla and not feel bad about it since the cost is already sunk.
swaltner
Active Member
I don't see a reply to your query, so this is what I'd do for calculating your per kWh cost
Basically, you're want to split your bill into fixed costs (things that don't adjust based on usage) and variable costs (based on the kWh) that you draw. It doesn't look like you have a tiered plan ("First 216 kWh" and "Next 186 kWh" charged at the same rate), so that makes the calculations a little easier.
Start with your total bill of $83.84, subtract off the $9.36 for your Basic Service. The basic service pays for the meter, and your billing and you would pay this same value if you used 0 kWh or 10,000 kWh in the month. I'll work on the assumption that most of the taxes are variable based on usage. If they aren't you would subtract those out of the bill as well. This breaks your bill into
Fixed costs: $9.36
Variable costs: $74.48
Divide the variable costs by your kWh usage ($74.58 / 403 kWh) to yield a price of 18.5 cents/kWh
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
'Most' means over 50%. If 45% of Teslas are in California, then even before we exclude all the people who are not paying tier 3 rates due to circumstances like PV, modest home electricity consumption, or plans that keep then out of the tier 3 you are relying on in your argument, your statement is wrong.
Let me break this to you gently: 45 < 50
And here is a survey of EV owners in CA asking about PV ownership. 39% amongst a group that is heavily weighted towards LEAF owners. I doubt the Tesla demographic is any less invested in PV.
You should really give up, it is making you look a fool. And keep in mind the more important point: how many Tesla owners have no choice but to pay tier 3 rates ? This would imply:
- Unable to reduce consumption. It is OK to turn down the pool heater. Honest
- Forced to use a tiered, non TOU plan
- Unable to buy home or community solar
Ulmo
Active Member
I decided to look at my home electricity PG&E bill:
That's NEM2 for Solar PV & EV charging. I didn't work in the March 13 - April 10 period, so I was a hermit. This caused lower driving. I know 5kWh at peak and -1 kWh at part peak isn't 0, but since it's relatively close to 0, I decided to make this calculation: ( $113.58 - $9.53) / 825kWh = $0.12612/kWh for 11PM-7AM weekdays & not 3PM-7PM weekends non-exception (exceptions are specified holidays and alternate daylight savings time calculations). Since I've never seen 12 months with this tariff, I don't know what's going to end up really at the end.
To charge my car from 0% to 100% according to Calculate usable battery capacity based on rated miles values with 62.4kWh and according to TeslaFi with efficiency
91.53% would take ( 62.4kWh/battery / 91.53% ) * $.12612/kWh = $8.60/battery. Please note that TeslaFi has many errors in its calculations due to a lot of things. However, I am using that as a rough number for now.
Using my efficiency rate of 91.53% to charge, that means $.12612/kWh / 91.53% = $0.13779/kWh of car battery charged to charge at home. That is really close to $0.14/kWh. That is not $0.11/kWh; it is a full 25% higher.
If I used the lowest rate in the above 2,826.85kWh, that would have been $356.53. Of course, some of that charging was solar, and some of that charging was higher period rates (peak and part peak), and the efficiency can vary.
Once again using TeslaFi, it tells me
If I take the most miles driven line, that is 50ºF to 60ºF at 388.25Wh/mile, or 2.57566 miles/kWh. To calculate $ per mile or miles per $, we do 0.38825kWh/mile * $0.13779/kWh = $0.05349695/mile, which no one here understands because we talk about MPG, and we do 2.57566miles/kWh / $0.13779/kWh = 18.6926miles/$1. So, my commute of
(from TeslaFi) is around 44.58kWh * $0.13779/kWh = $6.14 round trip for work plus one errand today (Aptos - Stanford with errand in Santa Clara, currently), or $1,504.30/year of 245 working days (which is not my typical work ratio but just a number to throw out there). I typically work about 65% of the year, so that would be $1,041.19 to that destination. Once again, that's not true even in that scifi version even more so, because I recently learned of a new perk at my current work site: free destination charging, and since I believe in using the most solar power available because of my desire of clean air (and minimizing solar and wind curtailment), I maximize my charging during day time by maximizing the destination charging at work, and my costs have dropped to about $0.76/day (that's a price drop of about 86% to 88%) for charging. But, that's not a typical situation. I keep saying that over and over for some reason.
Here's round trip for work without an errand, for completeness:
That is summer driving which is a lot cheaper than winter driving. It also includes one hill range. The to- work direction has light to heavy traffic, and the from- work direction has ridiculously heavy to very ridiculously heavy traffic (luckily, I miss the insanely heavy traffic period(s) hours later).
That's NEM2 for Solar PV & EV charging. I didn't work in the March 13 - April 10 period, so I was a hermit. This caused lower driving. I know 5kWh at peak and -1 kWh at part peak isn't 0, but since it's relatively close to 0, I decided to make this calculation: ( $113.58 - $9.53) / 825kWh = $0.12612/kWh for 11PM-7AM weekdays & not 3PM-7PM weekends non-exception (exceptions are specified holidays and alternate daylight savings time calculations). Since I've never seen 12 months with this tariff, I don't know what's going to end up really at the end.
To charge my car from 0% to 100% according to Calculate usable battery capacity based on rated miles values with 62.4kWh and according to TeslaFi with efficiency
91.53% would take ( 62.4kWh/battery / 91.53% ) * $.12612/kWh = $8.60/battery. Please note that TeslaFi has many errors in its calculations due to a lot of things. However, I am using that as a rough number for now.
Using my efficiency rate of 91.53% to charge, that means $.12612/kWh / 91.53% = $0.13779/kWh of car battery charged to charge at home. That is really close to $0.14/kWh. That is not $0.11/kWh; it is a full 25% higher.
If I used the lowest rate in the above 2,826.85kWh, that would have been $356.53. Of course, some of that charging was solar, and some of that charging was higher period rates (peak and part peak), and the efficiency can vary.
Once again using TeslaFi, it tells me
If I take the most miles driven line, that is 50ºF to 60ºF at 388.25Wh/mile, or 2.57566 miles/kWh. To calculate $ per mile or miles per $, we do 0.38825kWh/mile * $0.13779/kWh = $0.05349695/mile, which no one here understands because we talk about MPG, and we do 2.57566miles/kWh / $0.13779/kWh = 18.6926miles/$1. So, my commute of
(from TeslaFi) is around 44.58kWh * $0.13779/kWh = $6.14 round trip for work plus one errand today (Aptos - Stanford with errand in Santa Clara, currently), or $1,504.30/year of 245 working days (which is not my typical work ratio but just a number to throw out there). I typically work about 65% of the year, so that would be $1,041.19 to that destination. Once again, that's not true even in that scifi version even more so, because I recently learned of a new perk at my current work site: free destination charging, and since I believe in using the most solar power available because of my desire of clean air (and minimizing solar and wind curtailment), I maximize my charging during day time by maximizing the destination charging at work, and my costs have dropped to about $0.76/day (that's a price drop of about 86% to 88%) for charging. But, that's not a typical situation. I keep saying that over and over for some reason.
Here's round trip for work without an errand, for completeness:
That is summer driving which is a lot cheaper than winter driving. It also includes one hill range. The to- work direction has light to heavy traffic, and the from- work direction has ridiculously heavy to very ridiculously heavy traffic (luckily, I miss the insanely heavy traffic period(s) hours later).
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Ulmo
Active Member
I think that's similar to my summer peak TOU (time of use) rate. I avoid charging the car under that rate. (EV rate plan has no tiers. Non-EV rate plans tend to have both TOU and tiers, if I remember correctly.) If I charged under that rate, my cost to go to work and back would be $20. It was $10 in my ICE, and $5 in my EV rate plan charging at night if I didn't have free destination charging (so actually $0.75/day).
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MikeBur
ManualPilot
Sorry @jmanning, just read this. Quoting a message or using @ followed by username heights a reply for them.
TeslaFi is a web site: teslafi dot com. I don't have any association besides being a user
. They just added nice functionality for coalescing drives, including lifetime (since starting tracking obviously ;-)) trip map.Actually, it is you who looks foolish. Not sure what dictionary you're using, but "most" does not mean "over 50%". Most simply means greater than everyone else, as in "most Tesla's are sold in California."
Let me break this down for you. If Johnny has 3 apples, Kate has 2 apples, and Ted has 2 apples, Johnny has the "most" apples. And yes, he has less than 50% of the total apples.
Finally, let's agree that if you own an EV, no matter how small a home you live in, you are over your 100% Baseline allocation. For SCE, baseline averages 10kWh per day. If you use an EV as a daily driver, you're using 400 kWh per month on the car alone, which is well over the baseline.
The pricing difference between Tier 2 ($0.25) and Tier 3 ($0.33) is not that great. If you live in an average middle-class house with HVAC, you will be getting into Zone 3. "Most" people who own Teslas do not live in tiny apartments.
Therefore, unless they have their own generation facility (solar/wind/etc), "most" Californians will be unable to charge their EV at < $0.25. Time-of-use plans can help, but they substantially increase the rate of electricity during peak times (2pm-8pm).
In fact, in the USA, "most" consumers are on Tiered plans still and not TOU as you suggest.
As of last year, 17 states had smart meter penetration of 50% or more. Yet only seven states — Maryland, Delaware, Arizona, Oklahoma, Ohio, Arkansas and Louisiana — have more than 5% of their residential customers enrolled in time-varying rate plans.
Furthermore, less than 1% of all energy generated in the USA is solar power. Only about 950,000 homes out of a total of 126,000,000 in the USA have solar power, which is 0.75%.
Again, the point is, for "MOST" consumers (average household without solar or tiered plans), the energy costs for a Tesla are similar to gasoline. Charging an EV for less than gasoline, especially at <$0.10/kWh is a luxury that is enjoyed by about 0.05% of households, and probably < 15% of people on this forum, especially if you factor in the cost shifting to "peak" usage during the afternoon/evening.
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Reciprocity
Active Member
I saved around $150 a year (roughly 17% decrease) on real-time-pricing, which basically means lower rates when demand is lower, in Illinois and it did not even require a smart meter. After a year, they finally installed a smart meter but it really only allowed me to see my usage from the previous day and of course historically. I am sure they have more planned for the meter and I really like being able to download my data that is updated nightly to include the previous day.
We honestly didn't even change our behavior that much as we typically are not home during the day when prices are high. I think if we really tried we could probably get closer to 25% savings. Anyone in Illinois with Comed should be on RRTP fast as you can.
You've got to love CA and their evil energy providers. I live in central CA under PG&E. Also on a EV plan. I cut my energy costs in half by running all high draw items only at night (pool filter, Tesla, Ice Machine, Golf Cart, etc). I was paying as much as 45c /kWh at the highest tier under the non EV plan. Now it's all time of use and the solar takes care of the day time as lone as I am not using the aforementioned items in the middle of the day. Still, about $14 to fully charge my P100D at off peek rates. This tiered energy rate system sucks. It would be like paying $2/gallon for your first 5 gallons of gas, $4 for the next 5, and $6 for anything more.
Good argument, but it's slightly flawed. Semantics aside, what they really mean by asking "when will they pay for themselves" is when will you recoup your funds invested. If you recoup the full cost at the sale of the home, you'll also have to factor in asset depreciation, because nothing lasts forever. If you sell your house immediately after installing it, you may recoup the full cost, but wouldn't realize the energy savings if you lived in the house long term. If you are in the house long term, you are still 12 grand of cash in the hole, and your energy savings will recoup that over time while the system (and your house) depreciates.
But I'm sure you know that. Keep grinning
I find particular interest in this as both a math and science nerd AND a grammar nerd. (My dad is an English professor.)
You are not really correct here, because you are mixing up "most" with "the most". When you sarcastically said, "Not sure what dictionary you're using, but "most" does not mean over 50%", try the Oxford Dictionary, where one of their meanings is "the majority of".
most - definition of most in English | Oxford Dictionaries
If we go to mathematical definitions, "majority" does precisely mean over 50%. You are thinking of a "plurality", which means whatever portion is larger than the others, even if it is less than 50%.
So, in linguistic terms, here is the distinction we have in English. In your line about Johnny and the applies, that is why you have to use the term: "Johnny has the most apples." The terminology "the most" is used to refer to a plurality--the largest share. If you were asking about, "Who has most of the apples?" There isn't anyone who has most of the apples, because they are divided out into too many small portions and no one has a majority of them.
Kant.Ing
Member
Thanks for the calculation. Indeed, I looked at my latest PG&E bill (EVA plan and NEM1), and the Off-Peak rate is $0.12503 (raw). I also think your 91% is about right, as I also learned a slight kWh difference between what SolarCity PV generated and PG&E actually received. The $0.11 Off-peak number is seen in PG&E's document for CPUC regulation, as $0.11628 in summer and $0.11904 in winter. I cannot find how it ends up with $0.12503.
EV plan is one kind of TOU plans or a derivative of TOU especially benefiting EV owners and for sure the lowest rate most EV owners can get. And one can adopt a big PV and a storage to offset the charging cost even lower, altogether with other consumption.
KrenGrl
Banned
Well, youk now this, but you still pay with solar. You paid for the solar installation and materials, thus you are still paying for that electricity, though probably cheaper than the utility company.
The Tariff is the bible of rate plans. The rates change 3 to 8 times per year. Each page of each tariff has its own Effective Date. You can find all the current tariffs at PG&E Tariffs
Kant.Ing
Member
Awesome, thanks! I found they updated the schedules, now the latest rate is indeed $0.12503! My reference was an old schedule I downloaded last October.
Kant.Ing
Member
For everyone's reference, PG&E charges electricity delivery at a daily rate of $0.32854 regardless how much kWh delivered, which is about $10 a month.
Technically, that's not true. That is the Delivery Minimum Bill Amount. That only comes into play when your per kWh charges are less than that on a monthly basis.
