Cost to recharge Model 3

[Oyinko]

It is a lot cheaper with the proper time of use electric rate. As someone noted above he pays half your rate in that part of the state. But there's a limit to how much you can save if you're not spending much on gas to begin with. Anyway there are better reasons to drive an EV than the cost savings in electricity vs. gas.

CleanPowerSF doesn't offer night time rate. I want to drive an electric and get cleanpowerSF to get 100% renewable instead of the standard 30% renewable.

Huh? I'm just quoting what I pay my electric company.

Residential Rates (Effective May 1, 2016) | VVEC

In california, PG&E advertise cost of electricity which is only cost of generation. They also charge to transport the electricity. Cost of generation with CleanPowerSF is $0.09. Cost of transportation is $0.13

 

[Oyinko]

The advantage of an EV is the control you have over your fuel costs, unlike gasoline. If your utility company does not give you a great deal on electricity, particularly at night when most charge and energy is cheapest, go solar. You can drive your energy and EV "fuel" costs down dramatically. You can control this.

Don't forget that many people don't own their house. I would love to go solar but I rent a flat in San Francisco.

 

[Oyinko]

Then why did you deliberately use wrong numbers? The rated economy of the M235i is 25mpg. You say you do worse than that, and instead you put a number a lot better than that?

Note that in the EPA calculations that give the 89 kWh figure the range actually works out to around 318 miles, not 310. But let's say that with your driving you actually get only 260 miles on 89kWh. And let's say that you can't get time-of-use rates and pay those crazy-high power rates. So $0.075 per mile. With your gas car at 22mpg and $3,39 per gallon on gasoline (I pay almost $8 USD ), that's $0,154/mi. You have an energy cost savings of $0,0788 per mile. Times 8000 (less than the average person) is $630. Times the 8 year warrantied lifespan of the pack (not that they just die after the warranty, the rate of range loss actually tends to decline over time) is $5,042.

To sum up the reasons you come up with a lower number than you expected:

* US gas is cheap, but US electricity prices are only average
* California electricity is expensive by US standards
* Your electricity is relatively expensive even by California standards
* You drive less than average.

I did not use my average mpg because I guess I will not get the full 310 miles with the Model LR. So I used best case scenarios for both. On freeway, I do about 30-32mpg on average with my M235i.

But overall you are right, cost of electricity is expensive in California...

 

[SergeyUser]

What would be "idle" electricity costs, especially in very cold or hot climate? It's my understanding that the car has to keep battery at a certain temperature all the time, so that means some amount of electricity will be spent when not driving. I understand it is fairly small, but it is a cost nonetheless, and it will be more substantial on per-mile basis for someone who drives less.

 

[KarenRei]

I did not use my average mpg because I guess I will not get the full 310 miles with the Model LR. So I used best case scenarios for both.

The problem with how you did it is that it clearly distorted your savings down. Decreasing the cost of a more expensive number by X percent is not the same thing as increasing the cost of a less expensive number by X percent. You literally just took 36% off your gas bill for no reason at all, which obviously makes people question how serious you are about doing a fair comparison. To make up for that in increased electricity costs you'd have to run out of charge at only 127 miles out of the 310-mile range.

On freeway, I do about 30-32mpg on average with my M235i.

Just a second ago you were telling us that you drive unusually aggressively and average 22mpg. Now you're telling us that you get 3-5mpg better than the EPA highway mileage?

You need to get your story straight. And do your math right.

 

[KarenRei]

What would be "idle" electricity costs, especially in very cold or hot climate? It's my understanding that the car has to keep battery at a certain temperature all the time, so that means some amount of electricity will be spent when not driving. I understand it is fairly small, but it is a cost nonetheless, and it will be more substantial on per-mile basis for someone who drives less.

If you don't use smart preconditioning, parasitic drain in bad weather (hot or cold) shouldn't be more than 1-2% per day. Bjørn in Norway had under 1% loss per day in an MS parked at the airport in subzero temperatures. Works out to something like 0,6 kWh/d. Or for this particular user with $0,22/kWh electricity, $48.

If anything, M3 - being a smaller car - should lose energy more slowly.

 

[AustinPowers]

I had in mind, and I'm sure many more people too, that driving an electric car was a lot cheaper compared to ICE.

This has been touted for a long time, but I can see no evidence for it, at least over here. And 22 US-cents per kWh (less than 20 Euro-cents) would be considered dirt-cheap, especially for 100% renewable energy. Over here that's between 25 and 30 Euro-cents per kWh, plus monthly base price.

 

[KarenRei]

This has been touted for a long time, but I can see no evidence for it, at least over here. And 22 US-cents per kWh (less than 20 Euro-cents) would be considered dirt-cheap, especially for 100% renewable energy. Over here that's between 25 and 30 Euro-cents per kWh, plus monthly base price.

Germany has literally the most expensive electricity on Earth Then again, your average gas price equates to $5.81 per gallon for regular and $6.48 for premium. Even going with the upper end of your listed electricity price - $0.35/kWh - your electricity is 59% more than the OP's but your gas prices are 75-95% more than theirs.

Meanwhile, our residential electricity prices are about 11 US cents per kWh but we pay nearly $8/gal for gasoline. Regular.

 

[David_Cary]

I have a private utility company and I pay $.10 a kwh (all costs included). The private company makes a large profit. So there is that. My water on the other hand is expensive. I live in a 40 inch of rain per year area and pay more than most of CA does.Guess what - the town handles the water. Water trumps my private electric and NG in a cost per month basis. Ok I have solar and that would be part of the reason.

Gasoline will always be a for profit company and that is the comparable. So why the socialist argument?

Electricity costs should go up for a number of years to pay for renewable construction. Over time, they may fall as the fuel costs go down.

Don't ever think CA has a rational electricity market. Wholesale costs of kwh are around $.04. Tiered is actually the opposite of a rational market since it gets cheaper for the electricity seller when a house uses more. CA has pricing that encourage conservation - that is fine but not rational or free. The costs for adding meters for EVs are certainly not rational or helpful.

 

[SageBrush]

Works out to something like 0,6 kWh/d. Or for this particular user with $0,22/kWh electricity, $48.

$48 a year

 

[KarenRei]

$48 a year

Yep. $384 over the entire 8-year battery warranty period. It's a pretty small amount, even with their high electricity rates.

 

[SpiceWare]

22 US-cents per kWh (less than 20 Euro-cents) would be considered dirt-cheap, especially for 100% renewable energy. Over here that's between 25 and 30 Euro-cents per kWh, plus monthly base price.

Damn - just checked my last bill and I paid $150.91 for 1312 kWh = 11.5 cents per kWh. I'm in Texas on a 100% Wind Power plan.

Looking at the details, the breakdown is 7.5 cents per kWh plus another 4 cents for delivery.

 

[gregincal]

What would be "idle" electricity costs, especially in very cold or hot climate? It's my understanding that the car has to keep battery at a certain temperature all the time, so that means some amount of electricity will be spent when not driving. I understand it is fairly small, but it is a cost nonetheless, and it will be more substantial on per-mile basis for someone who drives less.

No, the battery only has to be kept at a certain temperature when in use. That's why power is limited when starting up on a cold morning until the battery pack is warmed up.

 

[voip-ninja]

I live in WA. Power is cheap. But that was never the issue. I honestly believe that the savings come from less "service" costs (i.e., oil, filters, and maintenance in general).

You wish that was true but it's really not. Tesla recommended annual maintenance on the Model 3 is unknown at this time but on the Model S the "recommended" service is over $1000 per year.

 

[voip-ninja]

Damn - just checked my last bill and I paid $150.91 for 1312 kWh = 11.5 cents per kWh. I'm in Texas on a 100% Wind Power plan.

Looking at the details, the breakdown is 7.5 cents per kWh plus another 4 cents for delivery.

You just need to listen to others, you live in a crap state that nobody would want to live in when they could live in the paradise that is California!

Considering how "wonderful" California is I find it remarkable how many California refugees keep flooding my state... and ruining it.

 

[voip-ninja]

I would like to discuss cost of recharging a Model 3.

I read on another thread that it needs 89kw to recharge fully a LR Model 3.

I live in San Francisco and subscribed to CleanPowerSF to get 100% renewable energy. Last month my electricity bill was $25.70 for 115kwh used in one month:

• $15.05 for P&G Delivery Charge
• $10.65 for CleanPowerSF Generation charge.

So it's about $0.22 per kWh.

If my math are correct, this means that to fully charge a Model 3, the cost will be 89kw x$0.22 = $19.58 for 310 miles of range = $0.063 per mile.

If I compare it with my BMW M235i, a full tanks cost about 12 gallons x 3.39 (premium) = $40.68 for about 350 miles of range = $0.116 per mile.

I know that I probably do more like 22mpg with my M235i on average rather than the 30mpg that I calculated but I also expect to not get the full EPA range estimation with the Model 3.)

I drive about 8000 miles per year so the savings will be about $424 per year. It's way below what Tesla advertise on their website and much lower than what I thought I would save by driving electric and with 100% renewable energy.
Let's discuss

You live in a market with high electric costs. Some parts of California are even higher, with tiered rates that can run into .30 per kWh.... I personally know people who live in modest family homes that spend $400 or more per month for electricity in the summertime if they have the audacity to use their air conditioner.

Model 3 is not a great proposition for you from a cost perspective, but to be fair you would need to compare it to something like BMW 330i that is more or less on parity with Model 3 for size/features/performance and you also need to take tax incentives and possible lower long term maintenance costs. BMW gets very expensive to maintain after the factory warranty expires. Long term the battery replacement of the Model 3 is unknown but will eventually be needed if you own the car long term.

For some, even if the cost was a wash, they would want to own the Model 3 out of some sense that they are doing something great for the environment.

 

[TexasEV]

You wish that was true but it's really not. Tesla recommended annual maintenance on the Model 3 is unknown at this time but on the Model S the "recommended" service is over $1000 per year.

Not so, to prepay the 4-year annual maintenance plan for Model S is $2400 which averages $600/yr.

 

[KarenRei]

It will be interesting to see what maintenance is on M3. Tesla seems to try to slot their recommended maintenance into costs "mildly cheaper than normal for their market segment". So I'm personally expecting somewhat less than BMW 3-Series-ish maintenance levels on the M3 (also minus ICE "regular maintenance" expenses, like oil changes and the like)

 

[voip-ninja]

Not so, to prepay the 4-year annual maintenance plan for Model S is $2400 which averages $600/yr.

Okay, if you pre-pay then it's lower. I would have to see what is covered.

All of the maintenance on my car was included in the sticker price for 4 years or 50K miles. Everything but tires really.

 

[TrickyDimitri]

I would tend to disagree with that. There is no reason that cost of electricity will decrease and I've also read that some state or countries are considering adding more taxes for EV drivers because they are not paying taxes on gas which is supposed to help maintain roads.

So maybe we might see additional taxes on electricity if you plug your car at home...

Duke Energy is trying to get a rate hike approval as I type this, so I am inclined to agree with you. Maybe in the future there might be a tipping point, but when a utility company invests in new technology (or spends money cleaning up their messes) they try to pass that cost on to their subscribers.