TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Could 1 Pedal Driving lead to 'Unintended Acceleration' incidents?

Discussion in 'Model X: User Interface' started by Rwolf01, Jan 2, 2017.

  1. Rwolf01

    Rwolf01 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2013
    Messages:
    19
    Location:
    Palo Alto CA
    There have been several cases on unintended acceleration reported. In each case it occurred in a setting where the driver could reasonably be expected to step on the brake but the logs show the Go pedal was floored instead. Tesla concludes that it's operator error and they aren't liable or negligent.

    I agree with all of that. Under the current circumstances the drivers are at fault.

    But I'm wondering if there isn't a more subtle UI issue here for Tesla to consider?

    It's not hard to find posts of people lauding 1-pedal driving and stating (happily) 'I hardly use the brake pedal anymore'.

    My concern is if this has the side effect of detuning the muscle memory needed to properly actuate the brakes in a reflexive situation? Maybe if drivers punch the go pedal 20 times a day and never touch the brakes, it's easier to do the wrong thing when startled?

    Tesla could test this hypothesis by looking at incidence reports to see if the drivers affected were exclusive Tesla drivers, or also drove cars with conventional pedals? Were they relatively new Tesla drivers, or had they been driving the car for a period of weeks, months or years?

    I'm not sure if there are any design changes to be made in the UI. Perhaps people more familiar with the details could suggest something? (disclosure: I'm not a Tesla owner yet. I have an M3 reservation) 1 pedal driving does seem like a convenience, and I believe it's already optional for people who don't like it.

    Question for Tesla owners: Has anyone who uses 1-pedal driving regularly experienced any momentary confusion or hesitation when reaching for the brake pedal? (either as an experienced user, or during the learning curve?)
     
  2. larmor

    larmor Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,369
    Location:
    Irvine, CA
    I think that is why regen was decreased in a recent update, at first liftoff of accelerator, but regen comes on strong when the brake is tapped.
     
  3. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    Palmdale, CA
    Other cars have 1 pedal driving (some even stronger than Tesla), so it would be interesting to know the stats of unintended acceleration on them.

    My theory is its actually a pedal placement issue in Tesla's that is just enough narrower than other cars as to cause trouble for some people.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    13,291
    Location:
    Texas
    Because those used to one pedal driving either lift up on the accelerator to slow or move their foot over to hit the brake pedal, I don't see how one pedal driving could do anything but help avoid this. With the conventional system, your foot is always pushing whether braking or accelerating, so pedal confusion is easier. I suppose pedal placement could be an issue for some, but I never noticed any particular difference in placement when I first got my Model S. This would most likely depend upon what your previous vehicle was.
     
    • Like x 2
  5. OzSimon

    OzSimon Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2016
    Messages:
    175
    Location:
    Gold Coast Australia
    You should check out Malcolm Gladwell "Revisionist History" podcast, episode 3 I think. It' s all about this issue and the billions it cost Toyota!
     
    • Like x 3
    • Funny x 1
  6. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2016
    Messages:
    1,987
    Location:
    NorCal
    In my experience, so-called one-pedal driving quickly becomes intuitive. And hitting the accelerator with regen still means "go" not "stop" so the idea that a driver would be more likely to confuse the accelerator with the brake than with an ICE vehicle makes no sense to me.
     
    • Like x 5
  7. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,753
    Location:
    NV
    IMHO it's a combination of the one pedal and the fact that folks are not using Creep (the latter I'm guessing at). Most of these accidents that I've read about occur during stopping situations (not usually during routine driving).

    My personal feeling is that folks are pulling into a spot, trying to modulate their parking/stopping and getting momentarily confused by the one pedal regen/brake sensation and the need to gently move their car a short distance without Creep. With a few exceptions, IIRC, most are new Tesla drivers probably coming from an automatic transmission (which Creep by necessity).

    My suggestion to new Tesla owners is to start off using Creep. Then as you get more used to the car, the one pedal regen, the torque, etc... then decide whether to turn it off or not. Over the year of owning, I've found Creep to be useful not just in tight spots, but also in telling me what gear the car is in (R vs D) and also whether the car is on. So to this day, we keep it on.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 1
  8. evp

    evp Nerd

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    430
    Location:
    Arvada, CO
    I think this is a valid concern. It's one of the reasons I usually leave Creep Mode enabled. When I'm pulling into the garage, the "one pedal" I'm using is the brake, not the accelerator. I only turn Creep off when I'm stuck in stop-and-go traffic. That's a bit challenging because you can't change that setting except in park. I'd really appreciate it if they made that restriction go away.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  9. GoTslaGo

    GoTslaGo Learning Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2015
    Messages:
    2,753
    Location:
    NV
    In stop and go, if you have AP1.0 you can usually turn on TACC/Autosteer and let it do the work for you.
     
    • Like x 1
  10. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Location:
    Newark, CA
    No never confused the two, speed pedal means go or go slow. Brake means stop. Works for me after 15000 miles no issue. New users should continue to decelerate using the brake pedal until they learn how to properly use the one foot speed up and slow down pedal.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. roblab

    roblab Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,230
    Location:
    Angwin (Napa Valley) CA
    Mebbe so, but how do you explain all those other cars that have occasional "unintended acceleration"?
     
    • Love x 1
  12. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2016
    Messages:
    2,523
    Location:
    Palmdale, CA
    Its been noted that the % of Model X's involved in unintended acceleration events compared to the number of X's on the road is relatively high considering how few cars are out there. Maybe that indicates a particular design choice that was made on the X that increases the likelihood of this occurring vs other cars.

    Tesla is being sued by a S.Korean celebrity claiming his Model X accelerated on its own into his garage, logs show user mistake
    We also noted that while everything points to user mistakes in the cases we looked into, it is still strange that so many of them happened in the Model X in such a short period of time. According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, there are approximately 16,000 crashes occurring each year in the US due to drivers mistaking the accelerator for the brake pedal. We have seen at least 6 reports of unintended acceleration in the Model X despite the vehicle being only in relatively small numbers on the road.
     
    • Disagree x 1
  13. Ames

    Ames Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2013
    Messages:
    518
    Location:
    Abu Dhabi, UAE
    I have experienced this phenomenon while riding a bumper car at a fairground. The car only has 1 pedal, to brake you release the throttle. When suddenly faced with a head-on collision, I noticed that I instinctively floored the throttle and thus endded up hitting the other car very hard. This happened more than once before I was finally able to train myself properly. I have been driving almost 30 years so I was very surprised at myself. I have also noticed that the Model X incidents are in car parks with relatively new owners.

    So what is the solution? I would like to see a "training period" with all newly created profiles so people can get used to things like one pedal driving in car parks. In this mode they could at a minimum avoid a full ludicrous launch in a car park from 2 mph.

    Dear Tesla, we know this is not your fault, but you have the product and talent to do something about it.
     
  14. EVie'sDad

    EVie'sDad Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2016
    Messages:
    599
    Location:
    Newark, CA
    • Like x 1
  15. Roger_wilco

    Roger_wilco Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Turkey
    I can understand if a car accelerates and crashes into a shop or whatever. but this is a restricted space and the car is very much able to see the restriction (wall). Why it allows itself to accelerate? prison break mode ? Tesla can easily prevent this happen by checking whether its on a clear road or not and respond 100% flooring requests according to that.. What would happen if kids were sitting on the other side of the broken wall, in the last event?
     
  16. commasign

    commasign Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,246
    Location:
    Davis, CA
    +1 about leaving creep mode on. IMO, low speed maneuvering is safer with the driver's foot on the brake pedal rather than on the accelerator. In the event of panic or surprise you can mash the brake pedal and the car comes to a stop. With creep mode off and using the accelerator for low speed maneurving you run the risk of mashing the accelerator in a panic or surprise situation. And even if you don't, you lose a split second having to slide your foot over from the accelerator to the brake pedal if you need to come to a complete stop. I totally see the other point of view that creep mode is a relic of gas cars, but we're all easily distracted these days and creep mode is a good way to force the driver to remain actively modulating the brake pedal.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. Petra

    Petra Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages:
    480
    Location:
    Palmdale, CA USA
    I've never had any issues with regen-related or no-creep pedal confusion. Then again, I drove a manual before the S and my other car still has a 6-speed. So, for me, driving a Tesla is like driving a manual that's stuck in first gear...a first gear that goes to 140mph. With strong Regen and creep turned off, the car behaves as I would expect a car to behave--automatics are weird and annoying.

    All of that said, my experience clearly isn't typical for the US given how few manual transmissions equipped cars are sold in the US annually... but they can build good habits.
     
    • Like x 3
  18. Phil Seastrand

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2014
    Messages:
    347
    Location:
    United States
    I've been driving for about 50 years and have always used either foot to brake depending upon which one I feel like using. I've NEVER confused the brake for the gas.
     
    • Like x 1
  19. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    5,104
    Location:
    South Surrey, BC
    Never once in nearly three years of driving my Tesla (with creep off for most of it). You still need to step on the brake to come to a complete stop in most circumstances. Regen slows you down but in most circumstances it takes longer to completely stop you than the flow of traffic requires, such as stopping at a light when it changes as you approach. Your brakes still get used with one foot driving so there's no confusion about it. I will sometimes try to plan a stop at a light so I don't have to brake but never if it changes right as I approach since there's simply not enough time. Same with going in my garage. I need to brake or I'll go through the wall.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  20. Amp Dup

    Amp Dup Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2016
    Messages:
    65
    Location:
    Orange County, California
    With exactly 3 weeks of experience, about 400 miles, I can say I have never driven through my garage wall! (Although, honestly, my garage is so full of junk I have to park on the driveway.)
    Seriously, though, I drive a Honda Pilot about half the time (for business). I love the 1 pedal experience with the Tesla. I have noticed that I over-use the brakes when I first switch from the Pilot to the Tesla.
    I have noticed that I lift the shifter up to put it into PARK. But wait, that is REV. With Creep Off, I don't notice right away. So far I guess the brake is set and has saved me.
    Anyway, from this thread, I'm going to switch to Creep On for a few weeks and see how I like it. Thanks.
     
    • Like x 1

Share This Page