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Could EPA Range approximations for 90D be low to help sell more P90D ?

Discussion in 'Model X' started by Macgaver, Jan 7, 2016.

  1. Macgaver

    Macgaver Member

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    I was wondering, with the model-S when we pick the P90D compared to 90D, we loose 18 Miles ... But strangely, for the Model-X, we only loose 7 Miles ?


    Could it be a temporary tactic to help sell more P90D at the moment (awaiting EPA certification to fix the approximation) ?


    Here what we know about the ranges at the moment:



    Screen Shot 2016-01-07 at 11.29.54 AM.png

    It could be true number also. Maybe, the performance engine is less impacted because the Model-X need more power to compensate for the higher aerodynamic. If true, it could mean that the performance engine could have better range when towing.

    Either way I will be happy since it could help me consider the performance-engine (I will twice a year be towing a 2500lb boat on a 450km trip )
     
  2. wheresmyx?

    wheresmyx? Member

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    Within the Model X design studio, it states that the P90D comes with the active spoiler and that the spoiler improves mileage by 1.6% at highway speeds. That gets you about 4 miles, but still doesn't explain the 10 mile difference in the highway column of your table.
     
  3. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    Agree with OP. The P90D range of 250 miles almost certainly involves fudging the numbers. It was initially listed with a range of 240 miles which is more reasonable. The 90D range of 257 miles is almost certainly conservative. It's range should be in the low 260's. It's only a matter of time before we start seeing posts complaining of the P90D's range.
     
  4. Macgaver

    Macgaver Member

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    On the French/Canadian version of the Model-X web page, they state 410km for the 90D, and 405km for the P90D.

    ... They rounded on the up-side for the P90D, and rounded on the low-side on the 90D. I feel like they really want to make the P90D range look "As Good As Possible" than 90D.
     
  5. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure this All Out

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    Can you explain why the P will have a significantly lower range than the regular drive cars? I don't mind giving up 7 miles, but not 20.
     
  6. Vitold

    Vitold Member

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    Model X does not have AM radio possibly due to interference caused by the drive-train. Since interference does not exist in Model S I like to think that Tesla has tweaked the drivetrain and made it more efficient at highway speeds.
     
  7. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #7 stopcrazypp, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    I don't think the speculation is true. At least for USA: the Model S 90kWh versions were simply not rerated because it was not worthwhile to do so for such a small change. They just used the same numbers as the 85kWh (not sure where you get the 287 and 269 numbers).
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=36009&id=36786&id=36008&id=36787

    In case you think this is special, GM did that with the 2014 vs 2015 Volt also. They had more battery (17.1kWh vs 16.5 kWh) but kept the same EPA rating of 38 miles of electric range because GM didn't rerate the new version:
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33900&id=35246

    The Model X numbers for 90D and P90D are already EPA certified, I don't think there is predent for recertification after EPA posts the numbers (whatever differences may have to do with updated software vs when Model S was certified):
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=36979&id=36980
     
  8. Macgaver

    Macgaver Member

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    The 269 and 287 Miles for the Model-S 90KW model are the number of the 85KW + 6% added to range

    I think the EPA for Model-X Performance is right (at 250Miles), but I have the feeling that 90D range are too low at 257 Miles.

    It won't be possible to know for sure until mid-2016 when someone can confirm, and at that time I guess EPA numbers will be officially fixed/confirmed.

    And the government link you provided is at the moment using the Tesla approximated value. They have a red "disclaimer" saying: Since the source data cannot be verified, neither DOE nor EPA guarantees the accuracy of these estimates.
     
  9. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    I figured that was the case. It's kind of misleading to suggest they are EPA numbers then. Rather they are extrapolated numbers from 85kWh.

    No, that is incorrect. When the numbers are posted on the fueleconomy.gov website, that is the official EPA number. Range estimates are never posted on that website in the specified "range" line. For example the Model X 70D range estimate is 220 miles, yet it is completely absent on the government site.

    That disclaimer refers to the "Unofficial MPG Estimates from Vehicle Owners" line. It has nothing to do with the numbers above that line which are the official EPA numbers for range.
     
  10. llavalle

    llavalle Member

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    Or maybe they realized, like all the other manufacturers, that AM in the model S does not work well at all and they could just remove it?
     
  11. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    I recall listening to AM in the sixties, and FM in the early seventies. I don't think I've listened to either since unless I pressed the wrong button.
     
  12. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    #12 commasign, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    The rear performance motor in the dual motor setup decreases the range approximately 6% compared to the non-performance dual motor setup. This is why the Model S P85D range is 253 miles versus Model S 85D range of 270 miles. This is also why the Model X P90D was originally (and more accurately) listed with a range of 240 miles which happens to be approximately 94% the range of the Model X 90D which is currently listed as 257 miles. The bottom line is there's a discrepancy between the X P90D and X 90D ranges as currently listed. One or other may be correct but both can't be correct. My guess is the P90D range is 240 miles and the 90D range is 257 miles.

    Tesla is likely fudging the numbers for the Model X P90D so folks are less likely to order the less profitable X 90D because of range concerns.
     
  13. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure this All Out

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    Well the 6% does make sense that it transfers to the X but I guess you could add back in the 1.6% (~4 miles) for the active spoiler so it could be 244? Is there any chance they have improved the rear motors a tiny bit on the X to get the additional 6 miles of range back? Maybe the new S's have that too but they have never said anything.:confused:
     
  14. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #14 stopcrazypp, Jan 8, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
    I think it bears repeating: The 250 miles for X P90D and 257 miles for X90D are the official EPA numbers (and for 2016 at that, not some year end 2015 thing). I don't think Tesla is "fudging" anything, unless people are suggesting they lied to the EPA and will need to contact the EPA to revise the numbers down in the future. Tesla had never done that before (the numbers have only gone up between model years as the cars are updated).
    https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=36979&id=36980

    People are also forgetting one thing: the wheels. The P85D went from 242 miles for the late 2014 versions (when 21 inch wheels were the only option) to 253 miles for the 2015 when they opened up the 19 inch option (although that likely includes some software improvements also). The 85D went from 265 to 270.
     
  15. MikeL

    MikeL some guy

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    Just dropped by to repeat that cameras instead of side mirrors gets you a 6% increase (range, efficiency) at highway speed
     
  16. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    To achieve 250 miles range in the X P90D, we'd have to see energy usage <310Wh/mile. Would be interested in knowing if any current X owners are seeing such energy usage.
     
  17. KJennerator

    KJennerator Member

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    I think the S does have the interference, as seen in this video: Tesla Model S motor induction sound through AM radio - YouTube
     
  18. commasign

    commasign Active Member

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    #18 commasign, Feb 8, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
    The Model S 85's are gone from the website and now Tesla is listing the EPA ranges for the Model S 90D as 288 miles and P90D as 270 miles. This makes the Model X 90D range even more suspect. To reiterate:


    Model S EPA rangeModel X EPA rangeModel X "range penalty"
    70D240 miles220 miles20 miles (8.3%)
    90D288 miles257 miles31 miles (10.8%)
    P90D270 miles250 miles20 miles (7.4%)
    Or put another way:


    Model X EPA rangeModel S EPA rangeModel X/S %
    70D220 miles240 miles91.7%
    90D257 miles288 miles89.2%
    P90D250 miles270 miles92.6%
    So...

    Elon Musk did say there's about a 10% range loss due to the larger size and weight of the X. That would suggest that 257 miles EPA for the X 90D is realistic and the ranges for the X 70D and especially the X P90D are overly optimistic.

    Or else, if the ranges for the X 70D and X P90D are accurate, then Tesla must be underestimating/understating the range of the X 90D which should be about 264-267 miles EPA.

    If the reason for the X P90D's relatively higher range and the X 90D's relatively lower range is related to the active spoiler (which the P90D has but the 90D doesn't), then the X 70D's range (which also doesn't have the active spoiler) should be closer to 214 miles.
     
  19. Ulmo

    Ulmo Active Member

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    Maybe Tesla getting pickier about using non-factory specified tires at the Service Centers has something to do with their range ratings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I hope that's a retrofit option.
     
  20. aesculus

    aesculus Still Trying to Figure this All Out

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    But the non P has the spoiler in the most optimal position for speed where it would make the most difference, so doubtful.
     

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