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Could Model 3 be too late?

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The Bolt might beat the 3 to market, but to me, it's the difference between essentially an extended-range Leaf vs. an electrified BMW 3 series. To me, there's no comparison, except possibly the price point.

The issue is not whether a manufacturer can build a long range EV or even beat Tesla to market. The issue is whether it will be compelling AND at an affordable price point AND whether it will be produced in mass market numbers. Regarding the Bolt or whatever GM's affordable long range EV is called, it has been reported in the short term (2017 time frame) that they will only have sufficient batteries to build a total of about 20,000 cars and that supply would have to be shared between the Spark, Volts, ELRs and "Bolts".

GM Bolt Seeks to Rival Tesla

The pack for GM’s new vehicle could be built in LG Chem’s Holland, Mich., plant, where the Volt batteries currently are made by the same supplier. That plant would have a capacity to build about 60,000 Volt battery packs, or 20,000 of the larger packs for a new EV, or a mixture of the two.

20,000 cars is NOT a mass market car. The more important metric will be to see who is the first to build an affordable long distance EV and reach a production rate of 100,000 or more per year.

Larry
 
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The more important metric will be to see who is the first to build an affordable long distance EV and reach a production rate of 100,000 or more per year.

Larry
That is most likely Leaf. They are already at 60k per year. Leaf 2 should be long range and easily hit 100k mark.

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Would you still take Model 3 instead of the German electric cars?

If it is just a question on brand preference - my preference would be Tesla - but price, leasing options, form factors etc all play a part.

Realistically I don't expect German premium OEMs to offer long range BEV in $35k price range this decade. And then there is the charging question ... Will they have a CHAdeMO adapter ?
 
The more important metric will be to see who is the first to build an affordable long distance EV and reach a production rate of 100,000 or more per year.

Larry


That is most likely Leaf. They are already at 60k per year. Leaf 2 should be long range and easily hit 100k mark.
Whereas I consider Nissan a serious EV manufacturer, I believe that you have your figures wrong. The fact is that the much more expensive Model S is currently outselling the LEAF.

I think you may be confusing that 60,000 number with the number produced to date, not the annual production rate.

Total production of the LEAF from 2012 to 2014 = 65,560.

2015-sales-chart-apr-vfinal3-750x525.png



2014-sales-chart-Dec-vfinal6-750x530.png



Larry
 
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Whereas I consider Nissan a serious EV manufacturer, I believe that you have your figures wrong. The fact is that the much more expensive Model S is currently outselling the LEAF.

I think you may be confusing that 60,000 number with the number produced to date, not the annual production rate.

No I was thinking of global numbers - isn't that what you are talking about when you say 100k ?
 
Whereas I consider Nissan a serious EV manufacturer, I believe that you have your figures wrong. The fact is that the much more expensive Model S is currently outselling the LEAF.

I think you may be confusing that 60,000 number with the number produced to date, not the annual production rate.

Total production of the LEAF from 2012 to 2014 = 65,560.

No I was thinking of global numbers - isn't that what you are talking about when you say 100k ?

No, sorry if I wasn't clear. I was talking about the first manufacturer to produce 100,000 long range EVs per year in the US.

Larry
 
Just to give my 2 cents on the original topic of the thread: no, it cannot be late.

Here is why: Unless there is another manufactruer/battery supplier out there who is already building a GF size battery plant, there is no way anyone can be competitive with Tesla on price/performance of the packs.
 
Supercharger network, Over the air updates, Service centers operating at a break even, no dealers to worry about. I think Tesla will do just fine compared to any german EV. The Supercharger network really is the killer-feature for the car and that it's free with the car is even better.

Although I do agree with you one thing the Germans are good in is the detail of the interior of the car. Take a Audi A3 or a Golf Highline those are well designed and premium not too much plastic cars, Tesla in general can learn from this.
 
Agreed that Tesla will do just fine. The original question is will the Model 3 be too late... and taking your question as a legitimate question, the answer is NO.

1) Tesla wants all the world's cars to run on something that's sustainable... and oil doesn't qualify. They have said many times they do not expect to effect this conversion all by themselves. If other car manufacturers are making BEVs, then that's great, and it doesn't matter to Tesla if they arrive before Model 3. (mass-market BEVs certainly won't be ahead of the Roadster, Model S or Model X will they?) If the question is, will Tesla survive as a player in a market of many other BEV choices, well, that is a deeper and more satisfying discussion. Answer IMO is most certainly yes, at least for several years. Assuming they put in more grab handles and cupholders :)

2) Tesla appears to have at its beck and call more battery manufacturing capacity than anyone else. Given the assumption that demand for BEVs will outstrip supply, Tesla are guaranteed a place in the market. General Motors' manufacturing capacity appears to show only 20,000 Bolts per year - that is puny! If Tesla has a Gigafactory, LG Chem+General Motors' Holland, Michigan should be called the Biddyfactory by comparison. It simply isn't a competitor on sales.

3) Tesla does not contend with the issue of franchised dealer monopoly (a problem that exists only in the USA), and is not letting themselves be subject to the ******** that comes with that extra layer of hassle. For example, look at the terrible situation with Nissan's electric charging infrastructure at Nissan dealers - super-spotty consistency. Where some dealers are welcoming of other brands, other dealers actually lock their chargers behind the gates of the dealership when they're closed, or place them in awkward places on the dealership lot, or simply don't wire them up correctly so that they're inoperative. BMW's recently-announced "network" of chargers is also behind the locked gates of the dealership. If the dealership is closed in the evening, you can't use it. Porsche and other companies aren't gong to be any different... they're going to be selling their BEVs through franchised dealers who are going to finding any way they can to extra extra money from customers.

4) Tesla on the other hand, puts their charging network out on publicly-accessible locations that are approachable 24/7/365, sells to you directly and has zero required maintenance! That will stay very compelling for consumers, and, after the Model 3 debuts for $35,000 ($27,500 after USA's tax credit), the savings will actually add up to some serious dollars over the first 5 years. BMW claim their servicing is free, but of course, you pay for it all up front without any negotiation or flexibility, when you buy the car. At some time in the future there will be an even less expensive Tesla platform (whether Generation 4 is a cheaper car, a pickup or another roadster etc. is still up in the air). The savings in maintenance of Tesla cars are going to have a distinct effect on the industry and bring down the maintenance costs of other brands to compete. U.S. dealership profits will decline... they will fight like street cats and preserve it as a viable industry, but it won't be the fat-profit-center business it is today. (each dealership makes an average of one million dollars free and clear profit per year, I am sure you already know).
 
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great points there MartinAustin - for me the biggest difference the dealership component brings is that they treat service as a cost center and most dealerships make over 50% or more of their profit just from the service department.
I'm in the middle of a Leaf lease - the car is great but the dealer experience is appalling
 
Again you are saying produce, so it's not clear. Tesla will reach a production rate of 100K Model 3's per year quite a while before they sell 100K per year in the US.

Fine semantical distinction.

So are you of the opinion that while Tesla produces 100,000 cars a year, someone else is more likely to beat them to selling 100,000 long range EVs per year?

Larry
 
Fine semantical distinction.

So are you of the opinion that while Tesla produces 100,000 cars a year, someone else is more likely to beat them to selling 100,000 long range EVs per year?

Larry

No, I just want to make sure you aren't comparing total Tesla production with other company's US sales, which is totally unfair. You need to either compare US sales to US sales or worldwide production to worldwide production.
 
Fine semantical distinction.

So are you of the opinion that while Tesla produces 100,000 cars a year, someone else is more likely to beat them to selling 100,000 long range EVs per year?

Larry
No, I just want to make sure you aren't comparing total Tesla production with other company's US sales, which is totally unfair. You need to either compare US sales to US sales or worldwide production to worldwide production.

Hi Greg,

Good. We are of the same opinion.

Larry
 
"Could Model 3 be too late?"
Yes.
"Will Model 3 be too late?"
No.

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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but has Elon Musk stated officially that the Model 3 will be able to use the superchargers? Or are we just assuming this?

I dread that a little bit, as the Model 3 is supposed to be for the "masses", and if we have "masses" charging on the superchargers its going to affect travelling long-distances in the Model S.
Yes, he's said that, not an assumption.
Point of clarification:
Model 3 will be able to use superchargers, as per Musk. Many of us assume it will not be "standard equipment" to have the feature enabled -- i.e. we think it will be a paid option.
 
Agreed that Tesla will do just fine. The original question is will the Model 3 be too late... and taking your question as a legitimate question, the answer is NO.

1) Tesla wants all the world's cars to run on something that's sustainable... and oil doesn't qualify. They have said many times they do not expect to effect this conversion all by themselves. If other car manufacturers are making BEVs, then that's great, and it doesn't matter to Tesla if they arrive before Model 3. (mass-market BEVs certainly won't be ahead of the Roadster, Model S or Model X will they?) If the question is, will Tesla survive as a player in a market of many other BEV choices, well, that is a deeper and more satisfying discussion. Answer IMO is most certainly yes, at least for several years. Assuming they put in more grab handles and cupholders :)

Great observation. I generally agree.

In theory it may be true that it doesn't matter to Elon if some other manufacturer is first to produce a long-range, mass market EV. However, as a practical matter it is very important for Tesla to maintain the pressure on the other manufacturers if the entire industry is to move beyond a glacial pace in pursuing a sustainable future. By doing so, as you point out, it also assures the company's viability and of course comforts the shareholders.

So far Tesla has led the automobile industry and gotten them to move quicker on plug-ins by being first to build a compelling EV and demonstrate to other car manufacturers that they are in serious danger of losing market share. This reality has already been demonstrated in the conventional large, luxury sedan market where the Model S has significantly taken market share from the conventional competition even though Tesla only produces a tiny fraction of cars in comparison to the total market.

Now, it is important that Tesla continue to be first in the all-important mass market, because you can not lead from behind. By being first Tesla will continue to take market share, but now in more meaningful, attention-getting numbers. That is to say, only when the other manufacturers actually see that they've lost market share to an EV will they be truly incentivized to produce a competing affordable, long-range, mass market EV.

Everything that Elon announces pushes the pace and ups the level of play. The continual, innovative improvements to the Model S and the Tesla factory keep pushing the envelop of what is possible in an automobile. The most obvious display of Elon's resolve to be first in the mass market, and elsewhere in the stationary storage market, of course is the Gigafactory. Who else is this serious in pursuing a sustainable future?

Larry
 
I think a real question (at least here in the UK) is will the Model 3 be too early?

German manufacturers are really gaming the CO2 based system here, and Golf GTE/Audi eTron, etc. are subject to exactly the same tax rules as a full EV, such as the Tesla. Cynically I think the Germans will aim to play the long game, only forced into full EV's when the market is skewed and/or ready for mass adoption.

From a personal POV, I would get very marginal EV mileage gains from a BEV over a PHEV, as the majority of my commutes are in EV range of even the Mitsubishi Outlander. The odd occasional long trip, where I had to pay for fuel, wouldn't cover the cost differences of the old Supercharging fee of the 60kW car.

So with no appreciable benefits on the cost side, it leaves the car standing head to head on a feature/image basis.

Launching the Model 3 into such a tax regime, without Tesla having really built up the brand here to anywhere near that of the established players (the US definitely is ahead of us in this regard), will prove challenging.
 
From a personal POV, I would get very marginal EV mileage gains from a BEV over a PHEV, as the majority of my commutes are in EV range of even the Mitsubishi Outlander. The odd occasional long trip, where I had to pay for fuel, wouldn't cover the cost differences of the old Supercharging fee of the 60kW car.

That said, isn't the Mitsubishi actually one of the few rather good PHEVs with fast charging and adequate range. There aren't many PHEVs today that would answer one's needs like that.
 
I think a real question (at least here in the UK) is will the Model 3 be too early?

German manufacturers are really gaming the CO2 based system here, and Golf GTE/Audi eTron, etc. are subject to exactly the same tax rules as a full EV, such as the Tesla. Cynically I think the Germans will aim to play the long game, only forced into full EV's when the market is skewed and/or ready for mass adoption.

From a personal POV, I would get very marginal EV mileage gains from a BEV over a PHEV, as the majority of my commutes are in EV range of even the Mitsubishi Outlander. The odd occasional long trip, where I had to pay for fuel, wouldn't cover the cost differences of the old Supercharging fee of the 60kW car.

So with no appreciable benefits on the cost side, it leaves the car standing head to head on a feature/image basis.

Launching the Model 3 into such a tax regime, without Tesla having really built up the brand here to anywhere near that of the established players (the US definitely is ahead of us in this regard), will prove challenging.

A larger battery pack also would allow increased performance. While performance may not be a factor in your decision, I'd imagine it would be for quite a few people.
 
That said, isn't the Mitsubishi actually one of the few rather good PHEVs with fast charging and adequate range. There aren't many PHEVs today that would answer one's needs like that.

Yes, but the irony of the Taxlander (as it's nicknamed here) is that there is a slice of the market buying them and never using the plug-in capability, rapid or otherwise. Effectively simply driving them like a hybrid :(

This is purely down to it being the only 4x4 that isn't crippling on company car tax. Throw into the mix the fact you can reclaim fuel on a company car for business miles, and the actual MPG doesn't make any difference. So the diesel version of the Outlander, which does better MPG than the PHEV on ICE alone, is not selling nearly as well.

There is also a nasty sting in the tail for pure BEVs here in that the tax free reclaimable amounts for business miles is based on engine capacity. This has lead to the nasty situation where you can reclaim "business miles" if you have an i3 REX, but not an i3 BEV.

So somewhat perversely in the UK a PHEV can actually be more tax efficient than a BEV.

My view is actually the Volt (Ampera) would have been a fantastic car for the UK company fleet market FAR more so than the Outlander. I think it's problem was it arrived too early, had the wrong badge, and too radical a styling. People just weren't ready to allow mass market adoption of the tech. If it relaunched tomorrow, I suspect it would do much better.

This is why I think the Model 3 may face a problem of being launched into a market not quite ready for adoption.