I have to disagree with you. I did my research and nowhere on the Tesla page or any Tesla calculator did it show me a 30% winter loss in range. The Tesla Calculator is flawed and that is what needs to be fixed to be more accurate for customers going to the Tesla official website and making decisions. Customers also need to know that Tesla's supercharger calculator is also very flawed and under estimates actual charge times..
Could this be Fraud?
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I have to disagree with you. I did my research and nowhere on the Tesla page or any Tesla calculator did it show me a 30% winter loss in range. The Tesla Calculator is flawed and that is what needs to be fixed to be more accurate for customers going to the Tesla official website and making decisions. Customers also need to know that Tesla's supercharger calculator is also very flawed and under estimates actual charge times..
thefortunes
Active Member
Unfortunately, this is correct as the current range calculator on Tesla's website ONLY utilizes speed (only up to 70mph), temperature (0-110F), HVAC on/off and wheel size as input parameters.
It does not give you any options for other weather impacts (wind, rain, snow, etc...) but just has a disclaimer that:
Vehicle range may vary depending on the vehicle configuration, battery age and condition, driving style and operating, environmental and climate conditions.
Those of us who have tracked efficiency (MPG or MPGe) know that weather can play a MAJOR factor. It can be 10F here, but if there is no wind, rain or snow I will get better efficiency than 50F with rain.
James Anders
Member
Nice straw man.
Quote an earlier post and highlight/bold the portion that you want to disagree with and pretend that was the entire point of the post while ignoring the actual main point made in said post.
The main point in the previous post is that there is a massive difference in the availability and convenience of refilling a gas tank in the middle of a trip vs recharging an EV, so a modest reduction in cold-weather efficiency in a ICEV is no big deal, whereas it can literally make some trips impossible in an EV.
But even then you're still wrong about the point you're making. Cabin heat AND battery heating AND cold battery capacity reduction and are all cold-weather efficiency drags that are unique to EVs and make EVs more susceptible to cold-weather efficiency losses than ICEVs. Electric vs. Gasoline Showdown: Vehicle Range in Cold Weather | FleetCarma
To sum up: yes, it is obviously apples and oranges.
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jeffro01
Active Member
Exactly. When/if/hopefully EV recharging catches up with ICE based cars in both availability and time to recharge/refill then we can have this discussion again... However, as it stands now, it's more of a apples to iron ore comparison if you really want to be honest about it...
Jeff
dhcp
Member
This is the kind of detail obsessive nerd behavior I love reading about and can fully appreciate!
BrokerDon
Active Member
You can also draft a larger vehicle like a full size SUV for van to extend your range. I did that on our way to Las Vegas from L.A. in a STRONG headwind to go from running out before I got to Barstow & Primm... to having 25% SoC when I arrived at each. Best "wind wedge" I drafted was a Mercedes Sprinter van going 75 mph. Incredible difference being in his draft... and safe with AutoPilot running the whole time.
mal_tsla
Member
In gentle defense of the OP, Tesla never once mentioned winter range loss pre-sale for us. Not a peep.
We weren't shocked since I had read up on my own. But the first really cold day with near 600wh/mi, my wife and I looked at each other and agreed if we lived in a cold climate area there's no way we would have a Tesla. It's not ready for customers like us.
We aren't THAT much electric car enthusiast. Luckily we live in Texas. Not a problem
We weren't shocked since I had read up on my own. But the first really cold day with near 600wh/mi, my wife and I looked at each other and agreed if we lived in a cold climate area there's no way we would have a Tesla. It's not ready for customers like us.
We aren't THAT much electric car enthusiast. Luckily we live in Texas. Not a problem
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To the uninitiated, maybe we should point out that the range estimator triangulates trips to superchargers perhaps too conservatively. You should make 216 miles in a car whose estimated range is 250 with no problem. Just use the projected remaining range, and keep a buffer. On the way back, realize you'll have the hill.
If I was in your shoes I'd just try it one day with reasonable temperatures (anywhere around 50F to 70F which is likely common during the winter in SC).
According to EV trip planner that trip should come out to be roughly rated miles even with the larger wheels.
During your trip make sure to look at the trip planners projected miles left. Try to modulate your speed in the beginning to try to create a buffer of 10%. It will likely start out negative, but if you drive even 5 under the speed limit for a bit it should rise. Once it gets to 10% you can speed up.
Worst case halfway through the journey if you find that you're cutting it too close then stop off at the supercharger that's closest to your destination.
As to what Tesla said I find that a bit baffling. They also don't seem to have the range estimator for the X like they do with the S. At any rate the bare minimum amount of range you want is 50+ miles from how long the journey is (assuming you have charging at your destination).
According to EV trip planner that trip should come out to be roughly rated miles even with the larger wheels.
During your trip make sure to look at the trip planners projected miles left. Try to modulate your speed in the beginning to try to create a buffer of 10%. It will likely start out negative, but if you drive even 5 under the speed limit for a bit it should rise. Once it gets to 10% you can speed up.
Worst case halfway through the journey if you find that you're cutting it too close then stop off at the supercharger that's closest to your destination.
As to what Tesla said I find that a bit baffling. They also don't seem to have the range estimator for the X like they do with the S. At any rate the bare minimum amount of range you want is 50+ miles from how long the journey is (assuming you have charging at your destination).
Tesla doesn't have an obligation to teach its customers about BEV technology. Before I bought my LEAF back in the day I had done my research and knew that I would have a very limited range in winter.
To those that can't fathom using a BEV in the cold -- I've done it for 3 years. Its really not as much of a big deal as everyone seems to make it. My current Wh/mi (S60D) is 298. That's only like 3% off EPA rated. I could probably turn off the HVAC and exceed my rated miles. I think with experience you'll learn how to both enjoy your drive and get the efficiency that you need to reach your destination without stopping.
To answer you question, no I do not think this fraud. Tesla doesn't owe you any legal duty to disclose anything. Their sales employee told you what the EPA rating was and as many posters have elaborated, it isn't necessarily performed under the same conditions as your car (22" wheels are the biggie). While cold weather certainly inhibits efficiency, it does not mean the EPA rating is useless. In fact, I think EPA rating is not that far off (and I don't drive at 55mph but you can do several things to boost efficiency like preheating the cabin on shore power and charging for at least 1 hour before leaving on your trip). European ratings are way way ideal. EPA is fairly accurate.
Screening the customers? How about EDUCATING the customer? Still, 216 vs 257 - that's a 16% difference.
Ohh another x in South Carolina ... the rims take away some range .. however there's a super charger in Columbia now so its not that far out of the way as well as a destination charger in north Charleston.
CHRGIT
Member
Look at plugshare.com and see your other charging options. Buy yourself a Chademo adapter. You may never need it, but it is always good to have. Then make the drive and see how it goes. Stop and charge if you need to. My experience is the trip planner is overly conservative in the beginning and is more accurate after a few miles of driving.
Just yesterday with temp arouind 32 degrees I get in the car for an hour drive and with battery heating, climate at 68 and front and rear defoggers and headlights on in the evening I average 400+ Wh/mi. How is anyone getting 300 or less in the winter?
Judging by the screenshot you posted, you could use the Santee supercharger instead of the Columbia one, which would barely be out of the way at all. Plus, the restaurant at the hotel is excellent. Have a beer, get a sandwich, charge for a few minutes and enjoy life. Or slow down to about 60mph and you should have no trouble making it about 10.5 months out of the year.
If every prospective Tesla customer read this thread three things would happen.
First, you would have far few customers surprised at the real world range they get and that would be a reallly good thing
Second, Tesla would get more orders for the larger batteries
Third, some would decide not to buy a Tesla.
Regardless of your point of view does anyone think Tesla couldn't do a better job at educating prospective customers on range?
And the reason they don't is the adverse affect on sales?
First, you would have far few customers surprised at the real world range they get and that would be a reallly good thing
Second, Tesla would get more orders for the larger batteries
Third, some would decide not to buy a Tesla.
Regardless of your point of view does anyone think Tesla couldn't do a better job at educating prospective customers on range?
And the reason they don't is the adverse affect on sales?
For some reason in a Tesla I get 300 or less on highways and 350 when driving locally. The heater is insanely inefficient but less so once it gets to temp. Ensure your A/C is turned off (I've noticed it will blast you with cold A/C instead of outside air and then turn up the heat which is stupid and inefficient).
I had the heat at 78 on my drive to work this morning because I dropped my daughter off before going to work and forgot to turn it down and I still averaged 330wh/mi. I don't use front or rear defogger and my headlights are auto (HW2 seems to be aggressive with turning them on though). Aren't headlights powered by 12V? Maybe defoggers are too. They won't count in your Wh/mi then.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
I think the intent is to educate all customers. Negative publicity is not on their list of 'good things'.
Part of the problem (and many of us have experienced this) is that new employees just aren't up on all the details. Yes, they've gone to training - but every one of us knows that until you've driven an EV and lived with it, you don't fully understand. I don't believe anyone means to mislead, it's just an information gap.
I've always felt that Tesla needs to approach public education a different way. Consider that every one of us grew up watching our parents stop to get fuel, changing oil, etc. We learned passively about ICE. EVs are simpler, but the education gap is much larger for the general public. So how do we fix this? Owners help by advocating with friends and family. But more can be done. EVs should be written into story lines of popular tv shows. Parking at home and plugging in, with maybe a casual comment of 'this is my gas station' would go a long ways. 'Oh misjudged, better slow down - hey, can you look and see if there is a place to charge near our restaurant?' Stuff like that.
If you're part of an owners' club, look at the NorCal Reno's Co-Pilot program for pairing new drivers with experienced EV owners. Co-Pilot Program
In no way am I saying that Tesla doesn't need to step up their game on this one. But I'm also advocating that WE step up our game, too.
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