Covering the Brake

[SteveTheTech]

I think your second paragraph contained a few very good very real questions that we as EV enthusiasts will hear allot and if we are going to defend the EV we will need to know the answers and possible points of contention. I welcome others to copy the below questions and add your 0.02 cents.

("Will the government require artificial noise?"
"Will they reduce the aggressiveness of regenerative breaking?"
"Will they add forward coasting to simulate an automatic?"
"Will I need to hold the brake pedal down at stop lights?" etc.)

Requiring noise is a very real safety concern. I think it is an interesting unintended consequence. I think hybrids in electric mode are surprisingly quiet and they can sneak up on you. Maybe something like a deer whistle that is tuned to a frequency humans can hear. I do not think they should create noise pollution though, it should be directed to a narrow range in front of the car.

Regenerative braking will be a new hot topic. There is a reason for the load you are feeling. In order to capture and convert the energy in the small amount of time the car is decelerating. In the future the effects of the drag will be addressed as technology improves. Depending exactly (currently my knowledge is technically limited to hybrids which operate very differently) on how the regenerative braking is achieved in the future currently I assume by using the motor to reverse charge. Maybe in the future there will be a clutch pack or something that will engage when the pedal is released to use a different reduction gear setup. That is many years off though.

I really do not know if there will be a requirement to hold the pedal while stopped it would depend if the car would default to a neutral.

For now the early adopters may have to get used to a much more linear acceleration curve. Like many have said it is something you can get used to. Buying a car sight unseen is going to be a bit of a gamble from any company but it should be fun. I personally grin when I think about learning to drive something completely new.

 

[vfx]

Steve did you say you have not driven an Electric or a Roadster for that matter? It really changes perspective.

Having sound is the worst idea ever. No sound will ever scale. That is imagine a entire parking lot or traffic jam on a Freeway with what could be silent cars all making cell phone sounds.

I love aggressive regen. That said, cars should make it a user adjustable feature. Even if it's buried in some touch screen somewhere.

I'm not a fan of the Roadster's creep. Again. make it so users can decide.

I can't imagine the Roadster acceleration curve any better than it is. In a word, AMAZING. No wait! I'd like to change that to PERFECT.

 

[SteveTheTech]

I have not been fortunate enough to drive a full EV, a few Pre-I and a Civic Hybrid. The Mythbusters EV run sold me a while back and I have seen most of the videos on the internet involving new technology and the auto industry, from the Nissan side of things.

 

[PopSmith]

I agree with everything Eric said. Having a car make artificial sounds, just because it is electric, is, quite frankly, a stupid idea. I've been snuck up on by a few newer BMWs and Audis in parking lots and they most certainly aren't electric or even hybrids. I feel that electric vehicles are just being singled out because it's a "new" piece of technology.

In my opinion, if a law is made to mandate that an electric car makes artificial sounds at parking lot speeds it needs to be applied to all vehicles that emit under a certain Sones level, not just electrics or hybrids.

As for the regen, I love the feel of it on the Roadster. From my experience it felt smooth and extremely natural. I thought the acceleration also felt very smooth.

I have mixed feelings on the creep. It might be handy at times but I'd support it being turned off at the users discretion.

Having sound is the worst idea ever. No sound will ever scale. That is imagine a entire parking lot or traffic jam on a Freeway with what could be silent cars all making cell phone sounds.

I love aggressive regen. That said, cars should make it a user adjustable feature. Even if it's buried in some touch screen somewhere.

I'm not a fan of the Roadster's creep. Again. make it so users can decide.

I can't imagine the Roadster acceleration curve any better than it is. In a word, AMAZING. No wait! I'd like to change that to PERFECT.

 

[howabout2]

Having only test driven the Roadster, but also having over a year of experience with my MINI E, I would agree that the ideal would be to make many of these things user preferences.

I know the sound issue has been addressed at length in the separate trhead about that very subject, but I am strongly in agreement that adding sound for the sake of adding sound is nonsense. There is enough tire noise even if the electric motor's whine were to eventually evolve away. It may be harsh to say so, but people will just need to get reacquainted with childhood habits of looking before entering a street as a pedestrian.

I love the aggressive regeneration. Configurable would be great, as long as the Roadster's level of regeneration remains an option.

One thing I did not like about the Roadster was the "creep" that simulated the behavior of an automatic transmission. I would prefer that with no input on either the accelerator or brake that the car be effectively in neutral. The MINI E behaves this way and it seems completely natural to me.

 

[SteveTheTech]

Soon you would think holding the brake and the coast the same way we now think of pumping the gas pedal before starting the car or any type of choke.

 

[walk_n_wind]

Acclimating drivers with new technology is a risk that car companies are facing now.

I found this quote particularly interesting. I agree completely, but I think this ties in with the lack of driver education required in the states (I can't speak for other countries since I've never lived elsewhere).

The only hope here is that manufacturers, as part of the customer experience, might incorporate classes or short lessons for buyers before they walk out the door with their car.

The fact is that most people don't even *think* about the issues being deliberated
in this thread. Some 2 cents I found lying around...

 

[ESdude]

"creep" is important safety thing.

Think about it: in regular (ICE) cars with automatic transmissions you will not forget to kill the engine or put into "park" because of this.
In cars with manual - unintentionally bumping the gas pedal will not do much because you either in neutral, or the engine is off.
In electric car - you might simply forget to put your car into "park" mode and then pin some unlucky guy against the wall.

 

[howabout2]

"creep" is important safety thing.

I can see your point, but I still don't like it. I greatly prefer being able to take my foot off of both pedals while waiting at a traffic signal.

But I understand what you're saying; if nothing else than to reduce the potential of a multi-car pile-up if I were to be rear-ended while queued, holding the brake pedal down would have served its purpose. As is, with my foot on neither pedal, I would just be bumped into the car in front of me with very little additional friction.

Now that I've enjoyed the luxury of completely-intuitive input mechanics, I don't want to go back to the counter-intuitive model of the vehicle doing something even when I've not given it any input whatsoever.

 

[Doug_G]

I can see your point, but I still don't like it. I greatly prefer being able to take my foot off of both pedals while waiting at a traffic signal.

That is unsafe driving behavior in any car. If you're stopped you really should have your foot on the brake. I have been rear-ended a couple of times at stop lights, and doing that kept me from flying into the next car.

 

[ChargeIt!]

If you're stopped you really should have your foot on the brake. I have been rear-ended a couple of times at stop lights, and doing that kept me from flying into the next car.

**AND** prevented damage to *both* ends of YOUR car; **AND** prevented being charged by the insurance company (and ticketed by the police) from rear-ending another car and covering those damages. "A foot on the brake is the mother of prevention." :smile:

 

[raymond]

**AND** prevented damage to *both* ends of YOUR car; **AND** prevented being charged by the insurance company (and ticketed by the police) from rear-ending another car and covering those damages.

Really? I would swear that holding the brake actually makes the damage to your car's rear end worse as it has to absorb more energy. Also (at least in The Netherlands) if I'm rear-ended and because of that I rear-end the car in front of me, the car behind me has to pay for all the damages (or the car behind that if he'd been read-ended as well).

Perhaps it's because automatic transmissions are still a small minority over here, and thus nobody holds down the break pedal in a traffic jam or at a red light.

Another holding-the-brake benefit is reduced whiplash as your car doesn't jump forward that much when rear-ended.

 

[howabout2]

Yes, yes. You guys are right, it is certainly safer to hold the brake pedal down. So I can see the reasoning that says the creep is a safety measure to require that behavior. Certainly without the creep, the behavior that I feel most comfortable with is to take my foot off of either pedal.

If they have creep in the Model S, I will be disappointed for a brief moment, but I am sure that moment will be vastly overshadowed by most everything else.

 

[Doug_G]

Really? I would swear that holding the brake actually makes the damage to your car's rear end worse as it has to absorb more energy. Also (at least in The Netherlands) if I'm rear-ended and because of that I rear-end the car in front of me, the car behind me has to pay for all the damages (or the car behind that if he'd been read-ended as well).

Holding the brake will have a negligible impact (pun intended) on the rear damage, and will often eliminate damage to the front.

Doug

 

[samcarney]

I can see your point, but I still don't like it. I greatly prefer being able to take my foot off of both pedals while waiting at a traffic signal.

I think that "creep" is an important safety feature. If keeping your foot on the brake is sooo bothersome just put the car in neutral, come on. What do you do when stopped on an incline?

 

[SteveTheTech]

I personally hate having to hold the brake. Why should we still have that it's wasteful load. One thing I like about the 6 speed Mini is the Hill Start Assist that seamlessly keeps the brakes applied until vehicle speed is detected or 3 seconds elapse.

What is really needed is some intelligence. In order for the command to accelerate below 5 mph the laser cruise sensor should be able to potentially over ride the input. Hitting the gas instead of the brake is one of the leading causes of mass casualty and injury as well as property damage.

http://www.hp-research.com/files/papers/humanfactors/PedalsHSEF05.pdf
^Just something interesting I found while looking for some numbers, and I become completely distracted.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/jul/18/local/me-pedal18

 

[vfx]

Creep should be user programmable.

 

[cinergi]

I personally hate having to hold the brake. Why should we still have that it's wasteful load.

The Roadster doesn't feed power to the motor once you've come to a complete stop with the brake applied. Creep only sets in after you release the brake pedal.

 

[kgb]

Creep should be user programmable.

This is a computer with wheels... everything should be user programmable. The valet mode power should be user programmable. There should be other user programmable modes. In fact, every interface between car(computer) and human, should be programmable. I am a big fan of factory defaults, and user settings.

 

[PopSmith]

This is a computer with wheels... everything should be user programmable. The valet mode power should be user programmable. There should be other user programmable modes. In fact, every interface between car(computer) and human, should be programmable. I am a big fan of factory defaults, and user settings.

I do agree with you and I consider myself a "driver" and a "car guy" so I would be excited if this was a possibility. However, it would probably be too much of a legal liability (at least in sue-happy America) for Tesla to even consider a car with fully-programmable inputs.