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COVID-19 Recession

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Buckminster

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2018
10,221
50,673
UK
The Coronavirus thread is now at 760 pages. Please continue to use it for any medical related discussion. This thread can be used to discuss the impending recession worldwide, its impact on TSLA SP and when countries are likely to break the lockdown.

Anyone think we will get back to 2019 world GDP levels pre 2023?
How do the OEMs steer clear of bankruptcy?
Has COVID-19 lifted your expectations of Tesla market domination?
What happens to the economy long term if much of the world is WFH?
What will happen to the market if there is a second COVID-19 spike?
How much is TSLA insulated from the recession and any pending market collapse?
 
Elon Musk on Twitter
Elon concerned about central banks printing cash. Is this worse than quantitative easing or does it amount to same thing?
I waffled between “helpful” and “love”

The more I think about the growing wealth disparity and the disconnect between money and economic value (people getting egregiously rich when providing no economic value), the more I think it is just a “numbers game” that virtually/practically enslaves a lot of people who frankly aren't getting fairly and humanely compensated for doing work that keeps our society fed (I am granddaughter of an nth generation family farmer and my mom has been managing the property my whole life, not operating/farming), cared for (friends and relatives who actually provide healthcare are hardly compensated for the good they do, and now put at risk), safe (law enforcement, military, and first responders dangerous and poorly compensated) and basically comfortable (too many examples here). Plus the damage done to the environment is a “tragedy of the commons” and the only answer I can conceive of working would be a “cap and trade” approach. That has been my gut feel conviction that I have kept to myself because haven't had the time to research and describe it in a way that can avoid confirmation bias and be defensible.

So, if JK and Elon agree on a part of what worries me, that makes me feel a whole lot better.

TLDR: economy and environment on an unsustainable path. Will this be enough of a bottom to have a more thorough an economic dimension of “great realization” without destroying us?

@Buckminster - do you think you or someone can moderate this thread to keep it apolitical? I used to call myself a “recovering republican” but pretty disappointed and skeptical on all sides. If we had a moderately sane electorate, I’d be hoping political reform (of all parties and the systems, at least in the US) would help, but first we got a confirmation bias, lack of rational thought, reform media set of issues to work out. I am just not sure we can talk about economic recovery/reform without getting political...
 
This is only my humble opinion, but I think the next couple of months will be very dangerous for all of us in terms of contracting the virus. It is realistic to try to get a bit more of the economy working and some of it like the Tesla factory can be done with relative safety. But too many people will treat the situation as if the problem is over. Unless everyone observes maximum care (masks, distancing, gloves when possible, hand sanitizing and avoiding crowded spaces, there will be a resurgence of infection. This in turn will crush the economy again but with less optimism for a turn-around. This in turn could reduce the number of people who are willing to buy new cars of any variety. It will probably hurt Tesla less than OEMs but might even cut all the way into Tesla's expanded production capacity. The battery storage business should be robust in any case. Be careful out there.
 
@Buckminster - do you think you or someone can moderate this thread to keep it apolitical? I used to call myself a “recovering republican” but pretty disappointed and skeptical on all sides. If we had a moderately sane electorate, I’d be hoping political reform (of all parties and the systems, at least in the US) would help, but first we got a confirmation bias, lack of rational thought, reform media set of issues to work out. I am just not sure we can talk about economic recovery/reform without getting political...

Take a look at the Market Politics thread. If you've followed from the beginning to end, then I think you'll realize that the answer is "no". Everyone has their own idea of what a "moderate/reasonable" viewpoint is. Yes, you'll find common ground on many things, but there are a few differences that are intractable and they color each side's opinion on what constitute's a moderate solution.

I'll leave it at that for fear of making this post too off-topic as it is.
 
The Coronavirus thread is now at 760 pages. Please continue to use it for any medical related discussion. This thread can be used to discuss the impending recession worldwide, its impact on TSLA SP and when countries are likely to break the lockdown.

Anyone think we will get back to 2019 world GDP levels pre 2023?
How do the OEMs steer clear of bankruptcy?
Has COVID-19 lifted your expectations of Tesla market domination?
What happens to the economy long term if much of the world is WFH?
What will happen to the market if there is a second COVID-19 spike?
How much is TSLA insulated from the recession and any pending market collapse?

I think all this stems from how China handles their currency relative to the USD.

If the RMB (Chinese Yuan - aka Ren Ming Bi) is no longer pegged to the USD, and allowed to float, then it'll either become the new fiat currency, or at least de-values the dollar (as part of China's attempt to make the RMB stronger). Along this scenario, US inflation skyrockets, as all imported items become more expensive, and exports lose their value, triggering further consumer budget tightening which worsens the recession until everyone's making everything domestically. Which isn't a bad baseline for the economy to recovery from, but will be years down the line (takes time to re-build manufacturing).

Or the RMB stays where it is, and the USD remains the fiat currency of the world, to which all this stimulus money gets absorbed by the global economy. The US economy recovers after a vaccine is developed and everything goes back to normal, since every country remains relatively the same economically to each other.
 
I

The more I think about the growing wealth disparity and the disconnect between money and economic value (people getting egregiously rich when providing no economic value), the more I think it is just a “numbers game” that virtually/practically enslaves a lot of people who frankly aren't getting fairly and humanely compensated for doing work that keeps our society fed

[

I think about that lots. Strangely, especially if I play options and "win". If I lose , or invest in a company, I do not. But when I make a gain in an option I buy, i always think, 'this should be illegal'. You literally do nothing of benefit for anyone else but yourself. Some may argue you help keep the market fairly priced, and I say that is nonsense. When someone is slaving away (purposefully used colloquialism) to have a good quarter , and you can take advantage of that, and make more than the person who made it happen, it just is not fair.
 
The Coronavirus thread is now at 760 pages. Please continue to use it for any medical related discussion. This thread can be used to discuss the impending recession worldwide, its impact on TSLA SP and when countries are likely to break the lockdown.

Anyone think we will get back to 2019 world GDP levels pre 2023?
How do the OEMs steer clear of bankruptcy?
Has COVID-19 lifted your expectations of Tesla market domination?
What happens to the economy long term if much of the world is WFH?
What will happen to the market if there is a second COVID-19 spike?
How much is TSLA insulated from the recession and any pending market collapse?

1) I think we'll get back to 2019 GDP levels maybe in late 2021 or 2022.
2) OEMs - I think we will have to wait and see how the virus trends and how people react to it vis-a-vis using autos. If things resume back to normal then the OEMs will be ok for the next couple years, partly due to low gas prices. But eventually they will die due to Tesla dominance.
3) If anything I think Tesla has a bigger chance of dominating due the OEM's having to cut back on EV development.
4) WFH - I think some industries are really screwed - airlines, etc - they will have to consolidate at some point. I think the economy will organically find ways to move idle labor to new roles to fill new demand in tech/software, biotech, food delivery, and stuff like disinfecting, Covid-inspectors, tracing, etc.
Retail, commercial RE, restaurants, hotels, cruises also will have to consolidate/remove excess capacity. But they will still exist.
5) I don't think there will be broad shut downs; states can't afford it; they are feeling the pain now and having to do salary cuts and furloughs. They will try to manage future covid flare ups by doing localized shut downs.
6) I think Tesla is in a good spot; they have a unique position in that they are the sole mass premium EV company. They have the entire world as their market (have yet to expand into some markets). So they will most likely always have demand exceed supply. Even in a recession people still need to get around. Many industries will be ok.
 
This is only my humble opinion, but I think the next couple of months will be very dangerous for all of us in terms of contracting the virus. It is realistic to try to get a bit more of the economy working and some of it like the Tesla factory can be done with relative safety. But too many people will treat the situation as if the problem is over. Unless everyone observes maximum care (masks, distancing, gloves when possible, hand sanitizing and avoiding crowded spaces, there will be a resurgence of infection. This in turn will crush the economy again but with less optimism for a turn-around. This in turn could reduce the number of people who are willing to buy new cars of any variety. It will probably hurt Tesla less than OEMs but might even cut all the way into Tesla's expanded production capacity. The battery storage business should be robust in any case. Be careful out there.

I do think the risk of additional virus outbreaks in the US is real, but I also think the virus itself is a temporary shock, whether it lasts 6 months, 12 months, or 24 months, it doesn't last forever.

The question is what does the landscape look like with the tide totally out?

No one really knows, but my guess is there are winners and losers like all times, index measures or global economy measures don't tell the whole story. The fine grained story is winners do well, and losers do badly...

We are always going to reach a point where 50 Trillion Dollars worth of FF assets become stranded and of negligible value... COVID-19 seems to have accelerated that timeline.. Stepping back it is likely that a lot of other changes that were inevitable and desirable have also been accelerated. But some losers, are taking big losses.

On the flip side massive stimulus is being pumped into the system, it is wrong to consider the stimulus without considering the losses and wrong to consider the losses without considering the stimulus.. To some extent they cancel each other out...

My hunch losses are bigger than the stimulus, not just because of COVID-19, but because also of overdue structural change.

So IMO deflation is more likely than inflation, and deflation itself will help stimulate a recovery, so an economic downturn, a cleansing of a lot of toxins out of the system and rebuilding a new world with deflation and a better world for all. That better world is built on EVs, Renewable Energy, Storage, clean air, lower prices...and more liveable cities.

No doubt a pile of money is gone forever and there is a big debt overhang, I think this is mostly the retirement funds of older people and higher government debt, which possibly means higher taxes in future. So we all pay a price for progress.
 
1) I think we'll get back to 2019 GDP levels maybe in late 2021 or 2022.
2) OEMs - I think we will have to wait and see how the virus trends and how people react to it vis-a-vis using autos. If things resume back to normal then the OEMs will be ok for the next couple years, partly due to low gas prices. But eventually they will die due to Tesla dominance.
3) If anything I think Tesla has a bigger chance of dominating due the OEM's having to cut back on EV development.
4) WFH - I think some industries are really screwed - airlines, etc - they will have to consolidate at some point. I think the economy will organically find ways to move idle labor to new roles to fill new demand in tech/software, biotech, food delivery, and stuff like disinfecting, Covid-inspectors, tracing, etc.
Retail, commercial RE, restaurants, hotels, cruises also will have to consolidate/remove excess capacity. But they will still exist.
5) I don't think there will be broad shut downs; states can't afford it; they are feeling the pain now and having to do salary cuts and furloughs. They will try to manage future covid flare ups by doing localized shut downs.
6) I think Tesla is in a good spot; they have a unique position in that they are the sole mass premium EV company. They have the entire world as their market (have yet to expand into some markets). So they will most likely always have demand exceed supply. Even in a recession people still need to get around. Many industries will be ok.
  1. Nice to hear some optimism
  2. The more I think about it, the more I think, they are doomed in the near term. I just don't see why anyone would buy a new ICE when second hand cars are going to be much cheaper. Rental car companies can't get rid of them fast enough. People are going to be WFH much more. I see it as a tipping point - I think it has happened.
  3. Yep
  4. I hope you right
  5. But will the market crash if there is a second spike or is it already baked in?
  6. I hope you are right - I'm 90% in TSLA LEAPS....
 
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  1. Nice to hear some optimism
  2. The more I think about it, the more I think, they are doomed in the near term. I just don't see why anyone would buy a new ICE when second hand cars are going to be much cheaper. Rental car companies can't get rid of them fast enough. People are going to be WFH much more. I see it as a tipping point - I think it has happened.
  3. Yep
  4. I hope you right
  5. But will the market crash if there is a second spike or is it already baked in?
  6. I hope you are right - I'm 90% in TSLA LEAPS....
Maybe the OEM's are doomed. I don't know. Not everyone can afford a Tesla or wants one. Let's say half of society wants one, half don't. The other half will stick with what they know. Will they buy new or used? I think it depends on the incentives/pricing.
Ford for ex, they sell a lot of trucks. I don't see their truck customers waiting for the cybertruck (they might buy it when it comes out but that's far off). Will they buy a used F150 instead of new? Maybe some will. For a lot of people (farmers, contractors, etc) it is a business write off so they will probably just buy it.

I doubt the market crashes worse than the March low (was it the 23rd or 25th... I think it was on a Wed).
But I do see a lot of volatility. A series of "W" shaped stages, that may feel like mini-crashes.
But I don't think anyone knows for sure.
Essentially what it seems like to me is that, even if all states re-open, there will be a % of people who's behavior is modified for the "new normal" whereby they are not traveling, staying home mostly, to avoid the virus.
The question is - what is that %? Is it 1% of people? 5%? 10%, 20%, 50%?
If I had to guess, I would say maybe 5-10% will strictly keep modified stay-at-home type behavior, and the another 10-25% will have "subdued" consumer behavior... they will partially resume to normal but not fully; how does that manifest in the economy? they will do more shopping online and less in person. They will try to work from home. But they will go out/travel with caution/wearing masks.
Then you will have many people (50-70%) who don't give a *sugar* and live life per usual.

This is just the way I'm viewing things. I see people who are scared, and I see people who are not at all.
So, how will this affect stocks?
There's a tipping point, a sales decline threshold which if passed will result in bankruptcies. For each company it's different but for the affected industries they will be toeing the line, imo.
 
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The Coronavirus thread is now at 760 pages. Please continue to use it for any medical related discussion. This thread can be used to discuss the impending recession worldwide, its impact on TSLA SP and when countries are likely to break the lockdown.

Anyone think we will get back to 2019 world GDP levels pre 2023?
How do the OEMs steer clear of bankruptcy?
Has COVID-19 lifted your expectations of Tesla market domination?
What happens to the economy long term if much of the world is WFH?
What will happen to the market if there is a second COVID-19 spike?
How much is TSLA insulated from the recession and any pending market collapse?

Thanks for starting this thread! I've been looking for a place to have more focused discussions on how coronavirus will affect Tesla and the SP since early March but couldn't gain much traction. Given Tesla's strength post-M3 ramp (Fremont) and start of Y ramp, I believe coronavirus far and away poses the greatest risk to Tesla (both on supply and demand side) and, over the next few months, could provide the last buying opportunity we ever see in the low-mid hundreds.

Has COVID-19 lifted your expectations of Tesla market domination?

I personally never believed the "competition is coming" bear argument, but it appears others have and that they've changed their mind in a very big way post-Q4. (Or perhaps DaveT got it right when he speculated investors were looking to complement otherwise conservative portfolios with some growth?) In regards to COVID-induced supply disruptions, Autoline After Hours - Reopening the Auto Industry
, had an interesting show last week. They discuss how suppliers are on 45-60 day terms with purchasers and how they will struggle to ramp operations back up over the next two months without money coming in. Eichenberg predicts bankruptcies will ensue. I don't think Tesla is immune to this, but being vertically integrated, they'll likely fare better than the other OEM's. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't believe that Musk's twitter rants/comments on the JR podcast were because he's a freedom fighter. I'm not saying he doesn't feel strongly about those things, but people were very quick to jump to the conclusion that Musk's argument for ending the Bay Area SAH/opening Fremont was a moral one. I think a simpler, more likely motivation was the incredible impact the shutdown was having on Tesla suppliers. From the Q1 20 earnings call, Musk says:

"Yeah. I should say we are a bit worried about not being able to resume production in the Bay Area, and that should be identified as a serious risk. We only have two car factories right now, one in Shanghai and one in the Bay Area, and the Bay Area produces the vast majority of our cars, all of S and X, and most of the 3 and all of the Y. So, the extension of the shelter-in-place or, frankly, I would call it, forcibly imprisoning people in their homes against all their constitutional alliance, that's my opinion, and breaking people's freedoms in ways that are horrible and wrong and not why people came to America or built this country. What the expletive [Phonetic]? Excuse me.

People -- the outrage -- systems outrage. So -- but it will cause great harm, not just to Tesla, but to many companies. And while Tesla will weather the storm, there are many small companies that will not. And all people's -- everything people have worked for their whole life is going to get -- is being destroyed in real time. And we're going to have many suppliers -- or have many suppliers that are having super hard times, especially the small ones, and it's causing a lot of strife to a lot of people. Yes."

Many have focused on his comments about "forcibly imprisoning people in their homes" and "freedoms" etc. but it's mostly hyperbole, of which he has doubled down on many times since, to gain widespread support and successfully reopen Fremont (well played). We need not speculate on who specifically Musk is most concerned about though, as he named them directly - his own suppliers.

History has shown Musk is most likely to go on twitter rants/behave erratically on earnings calls when he's most frustrated and he's most frustrated when operations at his companies are not going smoothly. M3 "production hell" gave us "funding secured", "pedo tweet", and "bone-headed questions". Coronavirus has given us a "what the f", "freedom", and a plethora of other distracting tweets. Will Musk's early opening of Fremont without approval avoid the supplier fallout he was so concerned about? If not, Q2, and possibly Q3, could pose some serious downside risks as Tesla throws lifelines to suppliers and scrambles to source parts from elsewhere.
 
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JPR007 on Twitter

Palihapitiya said that the Fed's actions will only exacerbate the deflationary trend that is caused by technology companies who have trained consumers to save and get more for less in terms of technology innovation

I think we need a good answer for this as Chamath is a smart guy with a lot of knowledge who is often right...

My answer is we have seen this play out with Tesla, people know they can often get more car for the money by waiting, yet many still buy. that is because a current Tesla is better than what they have.

If the economic cycle adds to consumer savings in a deflationary environment, that is a good thing, deflation is offsetting low interest rates and helping ensure rates stay low.. Ultimately this combination means consumers have more money to spend as money goes further.

This video informs my thinking even more than Tony Seba:-

Lowering the cost of energy and transport means margins are retained while lowering the cost of products, lower prices products mean more consumers can afford them.

I guess the issues is unemployment which is going to rise anyway as the economy undergoes structural change and we need new industries to employ more people:-
  • Synthetic biology
  • Space Travel
  • Renewable Energy
  • Adapting to climate change (reconstruction, renovation. mitigation, direct intervention)
Chamath also notes the following:-

And he said that there is "no doubt" the economy is disconnected from the stock and bond markets

In part he is saying the stimulus is poorly directed and I suspect he is right... If he is saying some stocks are over valued he is right, the market is not always hyper-focused on picking winners and losers.
 
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I might be the most negative on the overall economy of those posting here :). I don't want to be.

At the simplest level, I see money (USD primarily, but any of them work) as representing claims on economic activity. For a modern economy to work, 99.99999% of transactions needs to be an exchange of economic activity for a claim on economic activity (as opposed to a barter economy where economic activity exchanged is directly exchanged for economic activity).

In a modern economy, there needs to be enough money (claims on economic activity) in circulation to keep the economy lubricated. In theory the economic activity and the claims balance out. But in practice, the value of a unit of economic activity (represented by a claim) is what we all agree it's worth (which changes).

I see a pack of gum at the convenience store and I want it. The store has it priced for $1, and I buy it - we've got an approximately equal view of how big of a claim on economic activity that pack of gum is worth. Most everybody reading this will agree. If that pack of gum were priced for $1000, then we'd also mostly agree that's too much.

The value of a claim on economic activity (money) is what we all agree it is. And mostly agree unconsciously. And have faith that most everybody else shares.


Which leads to my view of the economy today. Simplistically, the Fed's been creating claims on economic activity, and the economic activity to use those claims on doesn't exist / is declining. One possibility is that we had nowhere near enough claims in circulation, and all that new money (claims) just gets us to something closer to where we should be (and that's a good thing).

The other possibility, which is what I see happening, is that we've got huge amounts of money sloshing around with a decreasing level of economic activity to make claims on. This isn't sustainable.


The one other kind of transaction is in the finance and related industries, when we exchange claims on economic activity for claims on economic activity. For now, that's where I see all of that excess money that's been created going. It's enabling the value of companies (represented by their market cap) to become disconnected from the economic activity / value they're creating. Of course this time might be different, but every time valuation and economic activity become disconnected, they reconnect later. And I don't see the economy growing into the valuations fast enough - valuations are going to come down to meet the economic activity.


For TSLA and Tesla specifically, I see the company as being one of the very few companies that will outperform the market, and probably by a wide margin. But since I'm thinking in terms of an 80-90% discount from the market peak (say S&P 500 at 350-700 instead of 3500), if TSLA is only cut in half that's a really high level of outperformance.

A note about the S&P 500 - I won't be personally using this index for any component of my portfolio again. I've finally figured out that it's more like the S&P 50 with 500 company names on the list. The top few companies represent too large of a % of the index, for the index to be a good proxy for the economy. The index is a good investment if you want to own:
Top n S&P 500 Stocks by Index Weight
  • Microsoft Corp. (MSFT)
  • Apple Inc. (AAPL)
  • Amazon.com Inc. (AMZN)
  • Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK.B)
  • Alphabet Inc. Class C Shares (GOOG)
  • 6. Facebook Inc. (FB)
  • Johnson & Johnson (JNJ)
  • Alphabet Inc. Class A Shares (GOOGL)
Those are good companies, but they don't represent the economy. Good thing J&J and Berkshire are on there - that provides at least some diversification away from high tech (I work in high tech - even I know we're not the whole economy).


Anyway, what I see is that when the market starts selling off strongly, everything is going to come down. Even the really good companies. I learned this back in 08, when I found a company easily worth $80/share (5% safe dividend at that price) that was on sale for $40 (10% safe dividend). They sold down not because they became a bad company, but because people on leverage needed to sell stuff to make margin calls, and eventually they have to sell the good stuff as well as the bad; if for no other reason, the good stuff will raise a noticeable amount of cash to make the margin calls.

So my expectation for TSLA is flat to down for the short term. I see the company going below 700 before going over 900, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see <400 before we see >1000. That view is based on the macro economy and the stock market resetting to more historical valuations of economic activity (not a negative view on Tesla, demand, strategy, execution, or anything else within Tesla's control).


And lastly - I've been so wrong with this point of view so far it's humorous :). Nonetheless, except for my TSLA holdings I'm in cash as I only see reinforcing information on a daily basis for this point of view, rather than meaningful rationale for how the economy, and by extension, the stock market can build from here. I see everything, including TSLA, as being priced approximately to perfection.
 
The other possibility, which is what I see happening, is that we've got huge amounts of money sloshing around with a decreasing level of economic activity to make claims on. This isn't sustainable.

It is good to have multiple points of view here, that is the whole point of this thread...

In relation to your point above the other side of the equation is massive losses and write downs as some mostly Fossil Fuel assets decline in value, and companies go bust, paying back some reduced portion of their debt, in otherwise structural change and reduced economic activity creates real losses which absorbs some of the money the fed and others are throwing at the problem...

Those throwing money at the problem don't know how much money is needed, but I still think deflation is more likely than inflation..

I also think Tesla is the best place to invest money... probably Amazon and Alphabet are also fairly solid nets...

Lots of other companies including some of the tech companies can be disrupted.

For Apple they will remain a solid business, I just don't know if there is a lot of price upside coming, or if increased competition will lower margins and hence dividends..

IMO phones, tablets, laptops, apps stores and streaming apps are all things Tesla could do, if they wanted to.

Cars, FSD, manufacturing, battery production, and grid management are tougher businesses. Apple and Google can do software, and perhaps some hardware in these sectors, but they are not likely to do car manufacturing, or to be successful if they did try that.
 
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Even the really good companies. I learned this back in 08, when I found a company easily worth $80/share (5% safe dividend at that price) that was on sale for $40 (10% safe dividend).

This is also a solid and interesting point, we would have to say why we think this time around is different to 08/09.

My hunch is it is different, but it is hard to explain why.... this time around my guess is a real divergence with good companies on a growth trajectory doing better and weak companies experiencing structural decline having an accelerated demise. So things will speed up rather than stagnate... but the flip side is a lot of job losses and it is hard to see new jobs emerging fast enough.

So unfortunately winners and losers goes beyond companies and onto individuals and families, with the electoral cycle particularity the coming US elections, governments are going to keep throwing money at the problem, how efficiently that money creates jobs is the issue. i don't have a lot of faith it will be well directed...

For 08/09 I think most governments were slower to respond and a bit more conservative. The Australian government was one that threw a lot of money at the problem and as a result the economy travelled a lot better 2008-2010. The Australian share market mostly just follows the US market. So our market was probably lagging economic growth a lot of that time.

Where I live, now tourism is a major industry, the local economy took at hit 08/09 and did not fully recover to around 2017-2018. It was flying again, just before COVID-19, there seems to be more resilience so far this time around, partially because many of the remaining businesses also survived 08/09.

But there are also a lot of closed retail business and retail businesses struggling, again that comes back again to winners and losers...

So there are multiple factors some pulling in different directions... being conservative seems sensible..
 
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I might be the most negative on the overall economy of those posting here :). I don't want to be.

At the simplest level, I see money (USD primarily, but any of them work) as representing claims on economic activity. For a modern economy to work, 99.99999% of transactions needs to be an exchange of economic activity for a claim on economic activity (as opposed to a barter economy where economic activity exchanged is directly exchanged for economic activity).

In a modern economy, there needs to be enough money (claims on economic activity) in circulation to keep the economy lubricated. In theory the economic activity and the claims balance out. But in practice, the value of a unit of economic activity (represented by a claim) is what we all agree it's worth (which changes).

I see a pack of gum at the convenience store and I want it. The store has it priced for $1, and I buy it - we've got an approximately equal view of how big of a claim on economic activity that pack of gum is worth. Most everybody reading this will agree. If that pack of gum were priced for $1000, then we'd also mostly agree that's too much.

The value of a claim on economic activity (money) is what we all agree it is. And mostly agree unconsciously. And have faith that most everybody else shares.


Which leads to my view of the economy today. Simplistically, the Fed's been creating claims on economic activity, and the economic activity to use those claims on doesn't exist / is declining. One possibility is that we had nowhere near enough claims in circulation, and all that new money (claims) just gets us to something closer to where we should be (and that's a good thing).

The other possibility, which is what I see happening, is that we've got huge amounts of money sloshing around with a decreasing level of economic activity to make claims on. This isn't sustainable.


The one other kind of transaction is in the finance and related industries, when we exchange claims on economic activity for claims on economic activity. For now, that's where I see all of that excess money that's been created going. It's enabling the value of companies (represented by their market cap) to become disconnected from the economic activity / value they're creating. Of course this time might be different, but every time valuation and economic activity become disconnected, they reconnect later. And I don't see the economy growing into the valuations fast enough - valuations are going to come down to meet the economic activity.


For TSLA and Tesla specifically, I see the company as being one of the very few companies that will outperform the market, and probably by a wide margin. But since I'm thinking in terms of an 80-90% discount from the market peak (say S&P 500 at 350-700 instead of 3500), if TSLA is only cut in half that's a really high level of outperformance.

A note about the S&P 500 - I won't be personally using this index for any component of my portfolio again. I've finally figured out that it's more like the S&P 50 with 500 company names on the list. The top few companies represent too large of a % of the index, for the index to be a good proxy for the economy. The index is a good investment if you want to own:
Top n S&P 500 Stocks by Index Weight
  • Microsoft Corp. (MSFT)
  • Apple Inc. (AAPL)
  • Amazon.com Inc. (AMZN)
  • Berkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRK.B)
  • Alphabet Inc. Class C Shares (GOOG)
  • 6. Facebook Inc. (FB)
  • Johnson & Johnson (JNJ)
  • Alphabet Inc. Class A Shares (GOOGL)
Those are good companies, but they don't represent the economy. Good thing J&J and Berkshire are on there - that provides at least some diversification away from high tech (I work in high tech - even I know we're not the whole economy).


Anyway, what I see is that when the market starts selling off strongly, everything is going to come down. Even the really good companies. I learned this back in 08, when I found a company easily worth $80/share (5% safe dividend at that price) that was on sale for $40 (10% safe dividend). They sold down not because they became a bad company, but because people on leverage needed to sell stuff to make margin calls, and eventually they have to sell the good stuff as well as the bad; if for no other reason, the good stuff will raise a noticeable amount of cash to make the margin calls.

So my expectation for TSLA is flat to down for the short term. I see the company going below 700 before going over 900, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see <400 before we see >1000. That view is based on the macro economy and the stock market resetting to more historical valuations of economic activity (not a negative view on Tesla, demand, strategy, execution, or anything else within Tesla's control).


And lastly - I've been so wrong with this point of view so far it's humorous :). Nonetheless, except for my TSLA holdings I'm in cash as I only see reinforcing information on a daily basis for this point of view, rather than meaningful rationale for how the economy, and by extension, the stock market can build from here. I see everything, including TSLA, as being priced approximately to perfection.

It’s nice to see some balance somewhere on TMC.

I agree that COVID poses the greatest risk to TSLA, esp over the next 2Q, and possibly 4Q, with a second winter wave, and that Tesla-specific risks pale in comparison.

I believe that supplier disruptions and demand, esp NA for Q2 (save MY) are major headwinds, and could make for disastrous results near term.

Lastly, it seems that bulls’ optimism has made them all but forgot the shorts and the power they can wield. With short interest so incredibly low, longs believe they have rid themselves of the headache. That simply isn’t so. There have been much more attractive trading strategies/easier ways to make money given COVID and the resulting volatility. Eventually, those opportunities will dry up. If that happens before TSLA reports a weak Q2, shorts will have TSLA in their sights once again. 350 - 550 wouldn’t be surprising. Should Tesla report deliveries over 80k, it will be proof they are damn near invincible, and the short threat may be extinguished for good. My spidy sense would give that a <20% probability.
 
My hunch is it is different, but it is hard to explain why.... this time around my guess is a real divergence with good companies on a growth trajectory doing better and weak companies experiencing structural decline having an accelerated demise. So things will speed up rather than stagnate... but the flip side is a lot of job losses and it is hard to see new jobs emerging fast enough.

I think you're right about the divergence. One of the problems in the economy is that how long will the good companies continue to diverge, if the rest of the economy is shutting down? Life has been fine for me personally though this virus and stay-at-home event. I'm grateful for that. That's not the norm. An economy doesn't arise as a result of 1 person, or a small fraction of the people in the country. It arises from roughly everybody doing what they do, and a big hunk of the people can't do what what they do. That's not sustainable, and it's going to ripple out and eventually everybody (even the wealthy) will be affected.


One of the balancing ideas for me, that I don't have a sense of how big the impact will be - I think the market side stuff is going to happen faster than it's happened in the past. In case it isn't clear, I make a clear distinction between the economy, and the price of public companies doing business in the economy :)

My mental model for how bad the economy can get, and the market can go as a reflection of that, is the Great Depression of the 1930's. That was something like a 15% reduction in GDP in that period and a 90% discount in the stock market. That 90% fall took 2 or 3 years though. ( I don't expect that big of a drop in the market - I'm just keeping that tail risk in mind, and I'm in cash until I see upside in the market, instead of flat to down or a lot down). I've got NO fear of missing out on this bear market rally :)

Today, I think information is moving faster than it did back then, and that will translate into a faster market decline, and maybe a faster recovery given that there's a faster economic recovery. It might translate into fewer job losses and a smaller economic hit. But I don't expect this.

Here's an article talking about the current run up in the market:
"For Guys Like Me, It's All About Sheer Luck": Why Retail Traders Are Facing "Catastrophic Losses"
The gist being that the institutional and other big investors are sitting this market out and even selling, to the retail traders that are pouring in. It's one reason we've been seeing such low daily volume (it isn't just TSLA with low daily volume).


The reason I don't think this time is different shows up in this article and others like it:
Stocks Keep Moving Higher Even As Earnings Estimates Continue To Fall

EDIT: adding a more targeted article for this idea
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4335998-s-and-p-500-earnings-update-now-2022-estimate

The key element being the projected EPS of the index, and the price being paid for that (the index being a proxy for what's going on throughout the economy). There's a pretty tight correlation and a well established range for what investors pay for 1$ of EPS (about $16 over the long haul, occasional spikes to 20 or 25x, though they don't last). We're diverging right now from that A LOT. It's still early in the divergence, but the pointers are to lower and lower EPS for the index, even as the stock market keeps going up.


In TSLA terms, it's my only holding outside of cash (of substance). I'm actively selling puts and calls against TSLA (and only TSLA). Tesla is the only company I think is 'safe', and I expect my TSLA holdings to go down before they go up. I've even had the thought that TSLA is safer than loaning money to the US government (t-bills, bonds) as it's an economically productive asset that is likely to remain productive through what I see coming.

I'm hoping that my cash holdings, in the safest money market fund I can find, don't see their interest rate go negative. I'm entirely fine with the .07 or .10% or whatever interest rate that cash is earning. My concern is that the money market fund will see it's rates go negative.


And to reiterate - I want to be wrong. I just don't see a path through the brambles that doesn't include scratches and blood.
 
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My mental model for how bad the economy can get, and the market can go as a reflection of that, is the Great Depression of the 1930's.

I don't think the politicians threw a lot of stimulus into the mix in the 1930s my impression is loan became hard to obtain.

In Australia the Great Depression one view was that the interests of British Banks were put ahead of local property owners and businesses. This time around making sure the banks get their money will not be a priority.

But very high unemployment was also a feature of the 1930s and this time around unemployment worries me more than anything..

Will high unemployment affect company profits and market sentiment and drag the market down?

Normally I would say yes, but in this case where can the money go? Share prices can only drop if there are buyers and sellers, and in particular sellers.... Sellers would either need to sell or have somewhere better to put their money... Apart from moving to better stocks, there are not many options for better places to put the money..

I do think people who are unemployed or retired may need to sell stocks. More so if they have been partially living of oil company dividends, legacy auto dividends or any other kinds of dividends which were unsustainable. In this case it is the perfect storm because those stocks have also dropped in value...

Again I think there is a divergence here, conservative traditional investors and funds holding a lot of oil stocks and legacy auto are not that likely to hold tech stocks and in particular Tesla. If they are forced to sell it is a tough choice, they will get a better price for a stock with more of a future

And to reiterate - I want to be wrong. I just don't see a path through the brambles that doesn't include scratches and blood.

You have to be at least partially right here, at a minimum I think things are going to go badly for the losers...

Minimising the downturn will be all about reducing the impact of unemployment IMO, that means building infrastructure and providing incentives for companies like Tesla to build new factories, anything that creates jobs.... the unemployed can be helped.

On the other hand of older retired people are invested in the wrong stocks or in funds invested in the wrong stocks or even in bonds... I can't see how we can avoid them taking a very big hit. I can't see how it is easy for governments to help them, then the question becomes will they have the money to fund their retirement.?.. Maybe they need to sell real estate and trim their lifestyle...

Someone who is already unemployed and poor, or old and poor, with minimal investments, is not overly affected, the minimal chance that they might have got a job is reduced, the chances that the government may increase welfare payments is increased, Deflation may make their meagre funds go further...

Someone young of working age who invested in all the wrong stocks is a different case, if they still have work or can get work quickly, they can ride it out..

So ultimately a paying job and good investments make a big difference, if you are lucky enough to have both or be retired with sufficient finds in good stocks... pain should be minimal, the only question is strategy ....

I'm buy and hold because I think COVID-19 is 12-24 months and I have zero exposure to Fossil Fuel stocks... apart from going partially cash, there is nowhere better to put my money, and I'm probably still up on this time last year.

I would say there are a portion of sellers who are or will sell for strategic reasons, to "time the market" or stay out of the maker until winners and losers are more clearly defined... I'm not doing that, but I can see some sense in it.,... My hesitancy is not knowing how big this pool of money on the sidelines is....

I hope there are not many retail investors borrowing to invest, or going on margin to buy stocks, or playing options, who might be forced sellers down the track... With a very secure job borrowing to invest in the right stocks could be a strategy that pays off, so perhaps 1 in 10 could be big winners.. the other 9 will end up regretting it.
People this brave or foolhardy have to be a minority... I hope..
 
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