CPO has created some real buying dilemmas

[HeartDocMD]

New 70D vs. very gently used 2014 P85.

Very close in price after tax credit for new (~80K each).

AWD + new car smell + autopilot w 70D vs. perfomance boost + better range + frunk space w P85.

I know I could go up to 85D and have best of both worlds--I could afford it but having trouble writing a 100K check for a car.

Live in 4 season moderate climate but do have some snow/ice in winter etc. (North Carolina).

Tough first world problem. :smile:

 

[mknox]

I know this is not true for a lot of people, but the "P" version, whether a P85 or a P85D is just not worth the money to me. I've driven both many times. My S85 is already ridiculously fast. I just saw no need for stupid fast. Also, I do a lot of freeway driving and the acceleration difference between the P and non-P is not nearly as pronounced at speed as it is from a stop. My preference runs more towards "luxury" and I would rather spend the money on other options. Today, I would have a really tough choice to make around either a fully loaded 70D or an 85/90D. I do value the range and based on the fact that I've already seen nearly 10% degradation with my 2.5 year old car, the bigger battery seems to make sense for me.

Tesla also makes almost daily incremental improvements to the car. If I were you, I would be leaning towards the new 70D. My current 85 probably has a bit over 70 kWh capacity left in the battery now and still gives me lots or range for what I do.

 

[Saghost]

How much do you like road trips?

To my mind, Autopilot+ free Supercharging is huge, because of how easy and cheap it makes road trips.

OTOH, if you wouldn't drive it far, maybe the low end torque and extra space are worth more to you...

 

[Max*]

I was there too, I went with the 70D for my needs. My 3 reasons were autopilot, AWD and the new blue color.


AWD isn't as... necessary for snow in an EV. The reason FWD cars outperform RWD cars in the snow is that the engine weight is keeping the front tires on the ground.

Range? You need to figure out if you need the extra (20 miles?) or so of range depending on where you travel and how far the superchargers are spaced.

 

[mknox]

I was there too, I went with the 70D for my needs. My 3 reasons were autopilot, AWD and the new blue color

Yes, I forgot about the new Autopilot features and that would be important to me too.

I would get AWD now, but I can report after having gone through 3 brutal winters, my RWD Model S performed like a champ with the Nokian Hakka R2 winter tires I bought. I was never once in a situation where AWD would have gotten me out of a situation that the RWD with good tires couldn't have. My last few cars were AWD and the only real difference I noticed is that you can't pull away as quickly from a dead stop on snowy roads. But then, you really shouldn't be pulling away quickly on snowy roads because AWD does nothing to help you stop.

 

[kuttakamina]

I assume the 2014P85 does not have autopilot hardware. If it does, the 2014P85 may be a fantastic purchase... besides that ..

My suggestion: If you can, wait for the Autopilot rollout, delay your purchase - especially if Autopilot is important to you. Ask Tesla, as a potential customer when Autopilot is expected to help make your decision (and please share with us what they tell you).

As of today, the CPO's give you 95% of what new Tesla's give you, for 70% the price.
If Autopilot rolls out, and is all that it is cracked up to be, then of course new will be far nicer to have.

I went through the same dilemma. I ended up getting new 70D mostly for Autopilot.
I am quite disappointed that they haven't rolled Autopilot out yet, and given their latest comments, I wish I had gone the CPO route.

Here are a few more points to consider,

1. TACC is nice, but when there is sudden change in temperature (going from garage to outside), the lense in the camera seems to get some condensation, and you loose even normal cruise control. Of course this is something that a future software release could fix (give us normal cruise when TACC is unavailable). However, when TACC works, its rather nice. Other than condensation, a bug hit on the camera area, dust, salt/snow, etc. a number of things break TACC. It's very finicky IMO, needs perfect conditions to work nicely.
2. The parking sensors - DO NOT buy a Tesla without them. The car is huge, repairs are expensive. That makes parking sensors essential.
3. The "P" part, well, I'm not a speed monkey. 70D is plenty fast for me. I'm more about a quiet comfortable ride and latest technology.
4. The smaller frunk, ensure you are ok with it. The car has loads of carrying capacity, so frunk was unimportant to me.
5. Range, difference between 70D and P85 is so minor, IMO it is not a consideration.
6. AWD, is nice. Think snow, rain, mud, better handling in general, better regen. I have driven RWD and AWD in Norwegian snow. AWD can upwards climb on a 30 degree incline in 1 foot of snow. No way a RWD would do that. I know not your situation, but still!
7. Speed limit sensing, is also very nice to have. Needs autopilot hardware.
8. Blind spot warning, is also very nice to have.
9. Auto headlights, are also nice to have especially if you drive a lot of backroads at night.
10. Collision warning, is also nice to have. .. #9 and #10 will save you from deer hits. Where I live, we have more deer than people .

#1, #7, #8, #9, #10 - require autopilot hardware.

Good luck!

 

[Max*]

@kuttakamina are your comments about TACC based on personal experience?

I've driver about 3,500 miles in 1.5 months, and a lot of them have been with TACC, and I've never had it tell me that I can't use it.

 

[ArtInCT]

Kuttakamina:
I think that Blind Spot Warning subsystem is now Standard Equipment but it does require the Model S to have the sensor package so the 70D would have that but not sure about the older P85... If the P85 was built near the end of 2014 then it may have the sensor package. Very good points you make above.

 

[kuttakamina]

@kuttakamina are your comments about TACC based on personal experience?
I've driver about 3,500 miles in 1.5 months, and a lot of them have been with TACC, and I've never had it tell me that I can't use it.

Yes personal experience. We got our cars at apprx the same time - and we have only tried them in summer. My garage is heated. I've seen this behavior spot on, if it is cooler outside (65 degrees), when I go from my garage to outside, the condensation screws up TACC. I think its like you get condensation on your eyeglasses? Same issue. Also, I have tried TACC in snow (Norway), it doesn't work worth crap! Unless every 15 minutes you pull over, step outside and manually clean the radar and camera.

I think this winter when there are loads of D's on the road, people will try them out, and cry their panties off. Luckily Tesla can fix this with a software update. And I think they will, albeit in Tesla time.

My feeling is, they should roll it out as,

1. Defacto behavior: Autopilot,
2. If Autopilot not available, gracefully degrade to TACC
3. If TACC not available, gracefully degrade to Cruise

This behavior makes so much sense to me atleast.

 

[davidc18]

We went with the 70D for the autopilot features. Having driven two 2014 P85+ loaners (for a total of around 300 miles) simply confirmed our choice was right for us. The TACC features alone are worth passing on an older model (for us). If/When the lane keeping arrives we will be very happy.

 

[skboston]

I would go P85 for sure, larger battery and noticeably faster at acceleration.

I can care less about TACC, Parking sensors or AWD. My P85+ with winter tires survived the worst winter in Boston we've had and I usually put about 100 miles per day on the car and it didn't disappoint at all. I had 0 issues with the car and it's performance in snow storms (coming from an previous AWD owner).

It amazes me how people can't learn how to park a car without parking sensors, hello 10 years ago this was something most people have not heard and now stating they can't do it without the censors or camera.

The extra range is nice for longer trips you would take and these extra 30-40 miles you get might make the difference and very helpful to have in those rare occurrences.
P85 gives you that extra kick at start, which I love. I had a S85 loaner and it the difference was noticeable on the performance side.

I would never trade my P85+ for a 70D or regular S85D with the new sensor gadgets, maybe I'm just old school when it comes to electronics that are suppose to make your life easier, but actually don't (coming from a fan of self-driving cars, sadly we're not there yet). The only upgrade for me is P85D or P90D (Ludicrous), I just like the extra kick you get when you press the pedal.

 

[brianman]

It amazes me how people can't learn how to park a car without parking sensors, hello 10 years ago this was something most people have not heard and now stating they can't do it without the censors or camera.

I think you're overstating it. It's not a matter of "can't" it's a matter of "my paint job, etc. is worth the added convenience feature".

 

[rxlawdude]

I was there too, I went with the 70D for my needs.
...
Range? You need to figure out if you need the extra (20 miles?) or so of range depending on where you travel and how far the superchargers are spaced.

However, the Supercharging rate in the 70D is a bit slower than what I read the 85s get. For grins, I went to a Supercharger about 20 miles from work just to see how they work. I arrived with about 50% of my battery capacity, and charged to 80%. That took 30 minutes. This does not bode well for the promised "charge for 20 minutes and be on your way" that I expected.

But if I had 10% left, it may very well have charged at a greater rate to get to 50-60%. Also, I studiously avoided a shared Supercharger station to eliminate that variable.

 

[cab]

As I peruse the CPO cars, parking sensors are the one item I would miss the most. Next on the list would be the next-gen seats and even the new blue. The tech is cool, but I know I would use it rarely compared to how much I would enjoy the seats, color and sensors. The latter are only really an issue because the car is longer and wider than I'm used to.

 

[Saghost]

However, the Supercharging rate in the 70D is a bit slower than what I read the 85s get. For grins, I went to a Supercharger about 20 miles from work just to see how they work. I arrived with about 50% of my battery capacity, and charged to 80%. That took 30 minutes. This does not bode well for the promised "charge for 20 minutes and be on your way" that I expected.

But if I had 10% left, it may very well have charged at a greater rate to get to 50-60%. Also, I studiously avoided a shared Supercharger station to eliminate that variable.

Yeah, by 50% the charge is already tapered a bunch from the videos I've seen. I think the 20 minutes only applies for 2%-52% - or possibly 5%-55%.

 

[stevej119]

Yes personal experience. We got our cars at apprx the same time - and we have only tried them in summer. My garage is heated. I've seen this behavior spot on, if it is cooler outside (65 degrees), when I go from my garage to outside, the condensation screws up TACC. I think its like you get condensation on your eyeglasses? Same issue. Also, I have tried TACC in snow (Norway), it doesn't work worth crap! Unless every 15 minutes you pull over, step outside and manually clean the radar and camera.

I think this winter when there are loads of D's on the road, people will try them out, and cry their panties off. Luckily Tesla can fix this with a software update. And I think they will, albeit in Tesla time.

My feeling is, they should roll it out as,

1. Defacto behavior: Autopilot,
2. If Autopilot not available, gracefully degrade to TACC
3. If TACC not available, gracefully degrade to Cruise

This behavior makes so much sense to me atleast.

I think the reason Tesla chose not to give a choice and allow toggling between TACC and regular Cruise is the possibility of a driver (who perhaps trusts more than they should that TACC will stop them before hitting the car they're following) thinking he's in TACC when he's actually in Cruise.

There should be nothing "graceful" about an automatic switch from Autopilot to TACC to Cruise. Bells, horns and whistles should alert you that the level of assistance has decreased.

 

[smilepak]

New 70D vs. very gently used 2014 P85.

Very close in price after tax credit for new (~80K each).

AWD + new car smell + autopilot w 70D vs. perfomance boost + better range + frunk space w P85.

I know I could go up to 85D and have best of both worlds--I could afford it but having trouble writing a 100K check for a car.

Live in 4 season moderate climate but do have some snow/ice in winter etc. (North Carolina).

Tough first world problem. :smile:

Same issue with me, I end up buying 70D

My reasons are
1. Battery is on an 8 year warranty, buying used doesn't reset that.

2. Tesla is a technology car. It like saying should I buy the new MacBook Pro or last year model. Certain things are missing. Certain things got improved and fixed.

3. To number 2 above, the 2013 P85 I had loaner was crazy noisy due to engine noise and poor insulation. 70D whisper quite. To show things get improved

4. Battery degrading. If I am going to pay that much, I am expecting new quality so I can maximize it.

5. Customization, I like to call my own.

 

[kuttakamina]

I think the reason Tesla chose not to give a choice and allow toggling between TACC and regular Cruise is the possibility of a driver (who perhaps trusts more than they should that TACC will stop them before hitting the car they're following) thinking he's in TACC when he's actually in Cruise.

There should be nothing "graceful" about an automatic switch from Autopilot to TACC to Cruise. Bells, horns and whistles should alert you that the level of assistance has decreased.

When I said graceful, I did not preclude the possibility of alerting the driver. In fact graceful would definitely include alerting the driver. In fact, the alert may even include a vibration in the steering for deaf drivers? I don't know.
Anyway let's see what Tesla does.

 

[davidc18]

I agree that if the TACC degraded it would need significant warnings/alerts to the driver.

 

[Max*]

However, the Supercharging rate in the 70D is a bit slower than what I read the 85s get. For grins, I went to a Supercharger about 20 miles from work just to see how they work. I arrived with about 50% of my battery capacity, and charged to 80%. That took 30 minutes. This does not bode well for the promised "charge for 20 minutes and be on your way" that I expected.

But if I had 10% left, it may very well have charged at a greater rate to get to 50-60%. Also, I studiously avoided a shared Supercharger station to eliminate that variable.

Agreed. But after supercharging roughly... 20 times (I have 4,700 miles in 1.5 months already), almost every time the car was ready before I was (2 kids takes time to unload them, bathroom break, and reload them, lol).