CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[EVDRVN]

Anyone have any recommendations on some panels to add to my system with micro inverters. Something reasonable but not low quality. This will be DIY on a flat roof, I'm thinking 2kW.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I just got my latest PGE bill. I use about 60 to 80 kwh per day with heat pumps, christmas lights etc. And folks think any amount of solar and batteries could cover this and be off grid? Impossible. Even with my 30kw solar, I am lucky to average lets say 30 kwh per day per month in winter. Batteries would be dead if that is all I used. So again, for folks with gas, but thinks we should be all electric with EV's, etc, well, .. I walk the talk with a 99% electric house, and again, impossible, totally impossible, to be totally off grid!!

This discussion is turning in another direction, but I wanted to point out again, to avoid the NEM charges, you don't have to be totally off grid. All you have to do is to take your solar off grid (and you can have it still power a subset of your loads). I believe that was what people were talking about when off grid was mentioned.

 

[h2ofun]

This discussion is turning in another direction, but I wanted to point out again, to avoid the NEM charges, you don't have to be totally off grid. All you have to do is to take your solar off grid (and you can have it still power a subset of your loads). I believe that was what people were talking about when off grid was mentioned.

It gets confusing. So say off grid meaning no connection at all to PGE. Others are I believe really meaning non export, but still connected to grid if needed, like me

 

[stopcrazypp]

It gets confusing. So say off grid meaning no connection at all to PGE. Others are I believe really meaning non export, but still connected to grid if needed, like me

There's actually more variations that than. Here's just 3:

1) Totally off grid: all your electrical loads are off grid (perhaps even your heating loads are off grid) and you have no grid connection available at all.
2) Solar off grid: your solar system is off grid, but might only power a subset of your loads (or they power all your loads and you have a switch that connects your load back to the grid when your solar/battery runs low)
3) Non-export: your solar system is still grid-tied but you never export (other than the short time allowed by your local utility).

For this discussion, #1 is completely unnecessary to avoid NEM, although it does also. #2 is definitely sufficient to avoid NEM. #3 may or may not be sufficient depending on the specifics of your utility.

 

[dipper]

Looks like CPUC removed the decision for next week's meeting.

My guess is they will quietly pass it in their next meeting.

Hope Newsom comes in and renegotiate the terms. Or Newsom might get roasted in his reelection by his solar supporting Democrat voters.

 

[MJ_CA_2019]

Another perfect example of why NEM 3 is coming.

He only had to pay PG&E $110. He still paid for the ability to generate that 11,000 kWh.

 

[GenSao]

Looks like CPUC removed the decision for next week's meeting.

My guess is they will quietly pass it in their next meeting.

Hope Newsom comes in and renegotiate the terms. Or Newsom might get roasted in his reelection by his solar supporting Democrat voters.

Although the item is now off the agenda, any one still interested should consider providing a one-minute public comment at the next online CPUC meeting on January 27th at 10am. Public comment can typically be made on items not on the agenda (or in this case in future).

 

[getakey]

I heard an ad on the radio pitting low income versus rich solar urging people to call Newsome and fix the "solar problem" by implementing NEM3

 

[stopcrazypp]

I heard an ad on the radio pitting low income versus rich solar urging people to call Newsome and fix the "solar problem" by implementing NEM3

Probably the utilities spending ad money on this. As discussed up thread, it's obvious they are trying to use class warfare to get public support. Remains to be seen if the public and Newsom would be fooled by this. From the public comments, most of the supporters of NEM 3 that appear to genuinely be from the public are the ones who fell into the trap of green=left and are mostly supporting it as a way to pare back solar subsidies (they of course don't mention the flat fee being introduced for even owning the solar system in the first place).

 

[dipper]

96% from a poll said they will not install solar panels under NEM3 really say something.

Good lucky going green when only 4% of the people will go ahead with solar after NEM3. How is CA going to meet green energy goal with new homes with small solar setup?

I am already thinking of selling my overvalued home. Take the 500k tax free scheme. Then buy a cheaper home without solar. Or move out of state.

 

[sunwarriors]

Required new home solar will also be repealed since I think one of the requirements from that was it had to be financially beneficial. Since it doesn't pencil out anymore, new homes won't be adding solar.

I never liked that new home requirement personally. Different people use different amounts of energy.

 

[wwu123]

Anyone have any recommendations on some panels to add to my system with micro inverters. Something reasonable but not low quality. This will be DIY on a flat roof, I'm thinking 2kW.

Probably not the right thread to discuss deeply, but if you mean you have existing micro's, and Enphase (most likely), and system is more than a few years old, then a lot of new equipment will be incompatible with the old system - per my own investigation on adding 1kw or so. The older Enphase are four-wire setups; their newer micro's are a two-wire setup, so you can't add onto the existing strings. Older Envoy monitoring can't talk to the new micro's (though if you buy a new Envoy it can talk to the old ones).

So even though AC is still AC, you'd basically be running separate conduit back to the panel, and doing a whole separate 2kW system from the old one. Or else scavenging on eBay for discontinued microinverters as well as looking for older, smaller panels (250-300W) range, to expand the existing system.

 

[skepticcyclist]

Probably not the right thread to discuss deeply, but if you mean you have existing micro's, and Enphase (most likely), and system is more than a few years old, then a lot of new equipment will be incompatible with the old system - per my own investigation on adding 1kw or so. The older Enphase are four-wire setups; their newer micro's are a two-wire setup, so you can't add onto the existing strings. Older Envoy monitoring can't talk to the new micro's (though if you buy a new Envoy it can talk to the old ones).

So even though AC is still AC, you'd basically be running separate conduit back to the panel, and doing a whole separate 2kW system from the old one. Or else scavenging on eBay for discontinued microinverters as well as looking for older, smaller panels (250-300W) range, to expand the existing system.

What do you mean by older? IQ7 and Enphase IQ have been around for a few years and are two wire

 

[wwu123]

What do you mean by older? IQ7 and Enphase IQ have been around for a few years and are two wire

my literal quote was: "more than" a few years

Anecdotally, all I knew is that my system was 6 years old when I inquired about adding on, and found out adding 1kw would cost as much as the original system, because it would have to be a whole new system.

But researching just now, seems like the cutover was with their IQ6 launched and started shipping in 2017. But probably the older stuff still the majority of the supply chain on new installs through the end of 2017 and into early 2018. So "a few years" is about 4 years, technically speaking

 

[EVDRVN]

Probably not the right thread to discuss deeply, but if you mean you have existing micro's, and Enphase (most likely), and system is more than a few years old, then a lot of new equipment will be incompatible with the old system - per my own investigation on adding 1kw or so. The older Enphase are four-wire setups; their newer micro's are a two-wire setup, so you can't add onto the existing strings. Older Envoy monitoring can't talk to the new micro's (though if you buy a new Envoy it can talk to the old ones).

So even though AC is still AC, you'd basically be running separate conduit back to the panel, and doing a whole separate 2kW system from the old one. Or else scavenging on eBay for discontinued microinverters as well as looking for older, smaller panels (250-300W) range, to expand the existing system.

Separate parallel system. On inverter now and want a complete second system.

 

[wwhitney]

Probably not the right thread to discuss deeply, but if you mean you have existing micro's, and Enphase (most likely), and system is more than a few years old, then a lot of new equipment will be incompatible with the old system - per my own investigation on adding 1kw or so. The older Enphase are four-wire setups; their newer micro's are a two-wire setup, so you can't add onto the existing strings.

If both the old (if it's 4-wire as you say, presumably includes neutral and ground) and new (2-wire, 240V only) inverters have a 20A max branch circuit spec, and if there's headroom on the existing 20A branch circuit for the new inverters, I don't see why they couldn't be mixed. Enphase likely doesn't make an adapter cable, so it would require an on-roof junction box where 2 of the 4 wires are extended to the new cable type used by the new microinverters.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[wwu123]

If both the old (if it's 4-wire as you say, presumably includes neutral and ground) and new (2-wire, 240V only) inverters have a 20A max branch circuit spec, and if there's headroom on the existing 20A branch circuit for the new inverters, I don't see why they couldn't be mixed. Enphase likely doesn't make an adapter cable, so it would require an on-roof junction box where 2 of the 4 wires are extended to the new cable type used by the new microinverters.

Cheers, Wayne

Yeah, being microinverters, figured two wires are just 240VAC. So the proprietary 4-wire cable just junctions into regular AC wiring somewhere near the panels, I guess? But practically speaking, the old installer is not willing to make a hybrid system, rather than running new conduit all the way. And new installer likely won't touch the old system, let alone what that might do to the original warranties to modify the system that way. So I guess DIY is the way.

 

[wwhitney]

So the proprietary 4-wire cable just junctions into regular AC wiring somewhere near the panels, I guess?

IIRC that cable is just for use on the roof, so it connects to the building wiring at a junction box on the roof or nearby.

In which case that would another option (if there's headroom on the 20A circuit), start the wiring for the new microinverters at that junction box, rather than going back to the panel.

All of this is moot if the existing wiring to the roof is insufficient for the new power requirements. So this would only be practical if you are adding just a few panels/microinverters.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[charlesj]

I heard an ad on the radio pitting low income versus rich solar urging people to call Newsome and fix the "solar problem" by implementing NEM3

I heard that add on KGO radio yesterday or day before? Most likely from a group funded by the IOUs

 

[getakey]

from the ad:

“A flaw in state law is forcing Californians who can’t afford rooftop solar to subsidize wealthier homeowners who can,” said a Facebook ad. “Seniors and families struggling pay hundreds more each year in higher energy bills. Fix this unfair cost shift.”