CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[sunwarriors]

The IOUs say that when SouthPas actually sent energy to his neighbors and used the grid to import; he didn't pay his fair share to keep the mammoth grid-machine alive.

Says holydonut.

And that's their argument. But as my example above showed, my "fair share" is only based on prior consumption. As a matter of fact, I spent decades as a high end user of SCE. I got solar the second year as a customer of LADWP, which has a pricing structure so fair its not worth mentioning.

Anyway, the fair share argument is bogus. All I did was reduce my consumption. By doing that, yes, I went from paying quite a bit in to the mammoth grid to not much, but its not like in 2020 I paid $7,000 for the grid, and then in 2021 sent a bill for $7,000 to some poor person or persons.

All that happened was conservation.


And as I posted above, the utilities cannot exist if everyone, or even anyone, engages in serious conservation. I mean, they can exist, but not without restructuring how they charge.

Reading these messages makes me feel like energy/power users are viewed by the utilities as drug addicts. We use less energy/no energy/get sober, and now, the drug dealer utility is saying it's not fair that I'm not using their drugs anymore so wants to charge me massive amounts for getting clean (installing solar/storage), or just charge me a massive amount because I need maybe 1 shot to stay healthy.

The whole power payment structure needs to be re-evaluated since like you say, if no one uses much power anymore, the utilities would collapse. Why I still think the large utilties should possibly be broken up...local communities will see it as a local need, managed as a non-profit.

 

[sunwarriors]

low income consumers, the monthly charge would be unaffordable.

Low income people on CAREs or low income plans pay very little to begin with so it won't affect them. Mostly will hurt mid income that can't qualify for those plans.

Still, the solar/energy installer already forked out $50k. There has to be some $$ benefit or no one would do it.

 

[aesculus]

Southpas time shifted his use and sucked energy from the likes of wind farms, Diablo Canyon, salmon killing dams, and probably some dino-fart burning plant in Nevada.

Funniest thing I have read today, done seriously or not. Good job.

 

[Southpasfan]

How did you pull that off with so much coming from "self-gen"? I also have 3 PW's... and during all of 2021 they only exported 5,680 kWh. I was cycling them pretty hard too. My take from the grid was basically equal to what I exported in those 12 months.


Per Tesla's data for my house in 2021... Solar generated 13,100 kWh of which...
2,500 kWh was used contemporaneously in the home.
6,400 kWh was pushed into Powerwalls
4,200 kWh was pushed to the Grid.

About 10% of the 6,400 (640 kWh) that went into the Powerwalls was lost (but I did get a lot of wummm wummm wummm sounds).
So, I had 12,380 kWh of usable solar generation to divvy up.


My annual home consumption was about 12,380 kWh
2,500 kWh was used contemporaneously
5,680 kWh the aforementioned came out of the PWs after wummm wummm wummm
4,200 kWh came back from the grid

Ok, let me check here on the app .........

So due to a PTO refresh I have about eight months of data.

Total solar produced 20,410kwh

Total home usage 18,950kwh

I am not sure I am reading my app right, but it looks like I "lost" as you say, about 5% or 300kwh
So of the 18,950 home usage 6,570kwh was from PWs.

2,455 to Grid

And so far 1,804 From Grid.

There was another thread on trying to "balance" all of this through the app, but anyway. I was projecting for 12 months in the earlier post.

Its the difference between 3 PWs and 2, plus the larger your system is the longer the stretches are between charging the PWs and self powering the house.

 

[Southpasfan]

How?
Lets say you consumed 20,000 MWh annually before you got Solar
You add solar, produce 18,000 MWh and do not change your consumption habits. You now consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid.
Now you add powerwalls and time shift when you consume, but you have not changed your solar production nor your home consumption. You will still consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid. Actually, you will consume a bit more because of the 10% loss through the PWs

You now consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid.

Yes, you said "net" but your actual consumption from the grid is going to be something like, just estimating, 8,000?

Whatever you consume when the sun is not out.

Now, the big argument here is "hey, of those 8,000 I should get a credit for whatever I sent back." But that's about the overall system, not consumption.

There are three levels of "solar"

Solar only - small system - little export if at all = simple = reduction of consumption. Not for you (you may have the exact same consumption), but based on what the utility sees.

Solar only - larger system - significant export = more complicated = you have reduced your consumption (from utility perspective) to the extent your home is self powering when the sun is out, but otherwise, from the utilities perspective you are consuming just as much when the sun is not out, and moreover, expecting them, the utility, to give you a credit for exports.

Solar only - larger system - plus ESS - some export = massive reduction in consumption from the utilities perspective. Although, the utility does not have to credit you much because what you would otherwise export goes into your own batteries.

 

[Redhill_qik]

How?
Lets say you consumed 20,000 MWh annually before you got Solar
You add solar, produce 18,000 MWh and do not change your consumption habits. You now consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid.
Now you add powerwalls and time shift when you consume, but you have not changed your solar production nor your home consumption. You will still consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid. Actually, you will consume a bit more because of the 10% loss through the PWs

MWh should be kWh or you're running a small industrial site

I think we should look primarily at the import reduction versus the export-import offset. I think that is a more realistic view of the impact on the grid. I think the NEM-3 has this as a primary component, but we are fixated on the $8 charge because of the punitive nature.

I think NEM-3 should make the transmission plus distribution components as the new NBC, with 100% offset for the generation component, with no extra charge per kW of solar, and with any annual net kWh are paid out at the wholesale rate or CCA approved rate.

If the IOUs need to move to fix costs for the grid then it should be for all customers, while some siding scale based on device rating or annual usage.

 

[Zabe]

MWh should be kWh or you're running a small industrial site

I thought he was talking about H20's system

 

[getakey]

show me the math. Your net grid consumption is exactly the same. You save money through rate arbitrage, but you have not drawn less net energy from the grid. Your solar production that was previously exported is now charging your PWs. During that time you are pulling from the grid the same amount that goes into your PWs. Then when your PWs power the house, you are not pulling from the grid, but it is exactly the same amount that you previously exported. Its a wash in terms of net kWh usage (except for the 10% roundtrip loss thru the PW).

I just explained how. Most days most of my solar production is exported and not consumed. Before Powerwalls, all of my consumption after dark would have to be supplied from the grid. With Powerwalls now, some of that solar production goes to recharging the batteries (instead of being exported) which is then used to power the house after dark – instead of pulling from the grid. In the summer, this can even be the entire night’s power usage if I don’t need to recharge my car.

So, my consumption habits haven’t changed but I’m using much less power from the grid. And of course I’m also exporting less power to the grid.

 

[getakey]

You now consume a net 2,000 MWh from the grid.

Yes, you said "net" but your actual consumption from the grid is going to be something like, just estimating, 8,000?

Whatever you consume when the sun is not out.

Now, the big argument here is "hey, of those 8,000 I should get a credit for whatever I sent back." But that's about the overall system, not consumption.

There are three levels of "solar"

Solar only - small system - little export if at all = simple = reduction of consumption. Not for you (you may have the exact same consumption), but based on what the utility sees.

Solar only - larger system - significant export = more complicated = you have reduced your consumption (from utility perspective) to the extent your home is self powering when the sun is out, but otherwise, from the utilities perspective you are consuming just as much when the sun is not out, and moreover, expecting them, the utility, to give you a credit for exports.

Solar only - larger system - plus ESS - some export = massive reduction in consumption from the utilities perspective. Although, the utility does not have to credit you much because what you would otherwise export goes into your own batteries.

isn't net consumption the point?

 

[RKCRLR]

show me the math. Your net grid consumption is exactly the same. You save money through rate arbitrage, but you have not drawn less net energy from the grid. Your solar production that was previously exported is now charging your PWs. During that time you are pulling from the grid the same amount that goes into your PWs. Then when your PWs power the house, you are not pulling from the grid, but it is exactly the same amount that you previously exported. Its a wash in terms of net kWh usage (except for the 10% roundtrip loss thru the PW).

It depends on if you define consumption as net consumption or the back and forth movement. I agree the grid gets more "exercise" if you don't have batteries but the net consumption doesn't change (much) when you add batteries.

 

[getakey]

Ok, my apologies if everyone was referring to actual consumption versus net. I had the net filter in my head

 

[holeydonut]

Low income people on CAREs or low income plans pay very little to begin with so it won't affect them. Mostly will hurt mid income that can't qualify for those plans.

Still, the solar/energy installer already forked out $50k. There has to be some $$ benefit or no one would do it.

If they pay at all. A ton of CARE accounts have not been paid by the actual homeowner since the pandemic started; and the utilities needed federal bail out money to cover the unpaid bills. So who is complaining about the cost-shift burden where younger generations are paying the energy bills of current CARE households? heh.

So if the government is mostly paying the CARE/FERA bills, who exactly is the rich solar jerk "robbing" by not paying their fair share? Oh yeah, it's the non-CARE/FERA person who doesn't have solar. They're getting jobbed hard.

Edit: here's the link about it.

Unpaid utility bills? California will pay off $2 billion to avoid shutoffs

Lawmakers have agreed to pay off $2 billion of Californians' utilities debt, but haven’t extended the shutoff moratoria past Sept. 30.

calmatters.org

And look-back about how most of the delinquencies were CARE or FERA

California utility customers $1.25 billion behind on bills

Back bills total $145.3 million in SDG&E territory; utilities commission extends moratorium on disconnections

www.sandiegouniontribune.com

 

[holeydonut]

Ok, let me check here on the app .........

So due to a PTO refresh I have about eight months of data.

Total solar produced 20,410kwh

Total home usage 18,950kwh

I am not sure I am reading my app right, but it looks like I "lost" as you say, about 5% or 300kwh
So of the 18,950 home usage 6,570kwh was from PWs.

2,455 to Grid

And so far 1,804 From Grid.

There was another thread on trying to "balance" all of this through the app, but anyway. I was projecting for 12 months in the earlier post.

Its the difference between 3 PWs and 2, plus the larger your system is the longer the stretches are between charging the PWs and self powering the house.

Dude that is crazzzzyyy. You really only moved about 4,000 kWh over a full year across your meter (absolute value flow each way)????

I don't see how that could be... I have 3 Powerwalls and they barely could carry me through from 3pm to midnight during the Summer (EV2A shoulder/peak times). I was basically filling them up by 1pm every day, exporting a bit, and then dumping them to a low reserve by midnight. I imported 2 kWh of shoulder/peak energy during the summer (still pissed about that).

And even with this target, only about 1/2 of my solar production actually went into the Powerwalls; the rest went straight to home loads or to the grid.

Somehow your 3 Powerwalls buffeted almost 75% of your solar production, and you produced almost 60% more energy than me. Like to put it a different way; you were your own NEM to an alarmingly high clip hah.

 

[Southpasfan]

Dude that is crazzzzyyy. You really only moved about 4,000 kWh over a full year across your meter (absolute value flow each way)????

I don't see how that could be... I have 3 Powerwalls and they barely could carry me through from 3pm to midnight during the Summer (EV2A shoulder/peak times). I was basically filling them up by 1pm every day, exporting a bit, and then dumping them to a low reserve by midnight. I imported 2 kWh of shoulder/peak energy during the summer (still pissed about that).

And even with this target, only about 1/2 of my solar production actually went into the Powerwalls; the rest went straight to home loads or to the grid.

Somehow your 3 Powerwalls buffeted almost 75% of your solar production, and you produced almost 60% more energy than me. Like to put it a different way; you were your own NEM to an alarmingly high clip hah.

Huh. I have a 16.32 system, mostly south facing very little shade. The way the math worked is i set the reserve to 20%. So there’s 32 kwh to get through the night and most nights that was not a problem. in the summer had a couple of stretches of 30 days with no grid use at all. Avg consumption for the house is about 66 kwh a day. With a large system there are about 60 to 90 days a year with production over 100 avg. Make sure to charge the two cars during the day. Also the powerwalls only buffet ted about, 1/3 of production, but that one third about 9,000 kwh a year (system is in track to produce 28,000 in a year, which is a tad more than pv watts estimate but just a bit)

But even so, still need the grid. The size system one would need to get through the 30 days on either side of the winter solstice would be immense. Maybe a 4th powerwall but the real key is getting the production. there was a poster on here from idaho or somewhere with ten powerwall and four wind turbines to get truly off grid

 

[holeydonut]

Huh. I have a 16.32 system, mostly south facing very little shade. The way the math worked is i set the reserve to 20%. So there’s 32 kwh to get through the night and most nights that was not a problem. in the summer had a couple of stretches of 30 days with no grid use at all. Avg consumption for the house is about 66 kwh a day. With a large system there are about 60 to 90 days a year with production over 100 avg. Make sure to charge the two cars during the day. Also the powerwalls only buffet ted about, 1/3 of production, but that one third about 9,000 kwh a year (system is in track to produce 28,000 in a year, which is a tad more than pv watts estimate but just a bit

Hmmm I wonder if the car charging is the differentiator. We got our Model 3 in late August, and haven't really put that many miles on it (3,000 after 5 months). And I'm charging it overnight. Although I guess it makes sense for this coming summer to charge the car from like noon to 3pm with energy that would otherwise go to the Grid.

Does Tesla have a way to make it so the Model 3 charges at exactly rate of surplus energy that would normally go to the Grid? Like if my piddley 6.7 kWp AC system is collecting 6.7 kW at noon, my Powerwalls are full, and the house is using 1.0 kW... then the car automatically sets itself to charge that moment at 5.7 kW? And if it's 2pm and the same system is collecting 4.5 kW (house is still using 1.0 kW) then the Model 3 charges at 3.5 kW?

You know, to just use PG&E as little as possible to save strain on that precious grid.

 

[Incredulocious]

show me the math. Your net grid consumption is exactly the same. You save money through rate arbitrage, but you have not drawn less net energy from the grid. Your solar production that was previously exported is now charging your PWs. During that time you are pulling from the grid the same amount that goes into your PWs. Then when your PWs power the house, you are not pulling from the grid, but it is exactly the same amount that you previously exported. Its a wash in terms of net kWh usage (except for the 10% roundtrip loss thru the PW).

I don’t know why you’re saying things like this – you’re not making sense to me. I am not “pulling from the grid the same amount that goes into your PWs“.

During warm months (no heat pump usage) I have very little power consumption during the day. My solar production (9kW system) both powers the house and charges the Powerwalls back up by early afternoon, with usually no need to draw from the grid during warm sunny days. After that, all excess is exported. Then after dark my power consumption is mostly handled by the Powerwalls – no need to pull power from the grid. So the power company sees much less actual, overall consumption because I’m able to use more of my daily solar production than I was able to use before I got the Powerwalls. Obviously I do still pull from the grid during non-sunny days or heavier usage days (charging cars, running heat in winter, less solar production in winter anyway).

I’m not talking about rate arbitrage or money saved. I’m talking only to the point that having Powerwalls allows you to make use of solar production that you would otherwise not be making use of and exporting during the day. Time-shifting allows you to avoid pulling power from the grid. (Sure, with Net Energy Metering, what I export can pay for what I import from the grid at other times but that’s not what the issue was about.)

There’s no need to lookup example numbers. Many days during warmer months the house is 100% self-powered now – zero grid draw at all. This obviously wasn’t possible with just solar before I got the two Powerwalls. Though the big reason I did it was to deal with PG&E outages – besides the usual hassle of going without power, this would also mean no water here due to no power for the pressure tank pump and well pump.

Edit: here’s an old graph from the Tesla app illustrating this:

 

[stopcrazypp]

Tesla sent another email saying the vote has been pushed to 2/10 and that people who have not put in public comments should do so ASAP while there is still time.

They also linked to a survey by LA times where 86% opposed CPUC's plan (3.1% support, 10.5% partially), although the respondents were heavily skewed given 63% owned solar.
Should California slash rooftop solar incentives? We took a survey

 

[MJ_CA_2019]

How did you pull that off with so much coming from "self-gen"? I also have 3 PW's... and during all of 2021 they only exported 5,680 kWh. I was cycling them pretty hard too. My take from the grid was basically equal to what I exported in those 12 months.


Per Tesla's data for my house in 2021... Solar generated 13,100 kWh of which...
2,500 kWh was used contemporaneously in the home.
6,400 kWh was pushed into Powerwalls
4,200 kWh was pushed to the Grid.

About 10% of the 6,400 (640 kWh) that went into the Powerwalls was lost (but I did get a lot of wummm wummm wummm sounds).
So, I had 12,380 kWh of usable solar generation to divvy up.


My annual home consumption was about 12,380 kWh
2,500 kWh was used contemporaneously
5,680 kWh the aforementioned came out of the PWs after wummm wummm wummm
4,200 kWh came back from the grid

For me in 2021 according to Tesla app (with a 11.6 kW PV system and 3 PW)

PV System
15,390 kWh generated

4,924 kWh went to home usage
5,233 kWh went to charging the powerwall
5,233 kWh went to the grid

Home Consumption
16,320 kWh used

4,896 kWh from Solar
4,406 kWh from PowerWall
6,854 kWh from the Grid

 

[Lloyd]

I hand it over to the utilities for their genius play on the woke movement. I've read quite a few articles from various publications and they all repeat the same story that NEM2 is a hand out to the rich, and that NEM 3 will even out the inequity by taxing the crap of rich folks with solar to allow low income folks to get solar on their roof. Now, other utilities around the country are using the same playbook. We could see the end of residential solar in this country, at least for a while.

I fully expect NEM3 to go through as is. It'll be interesting to see what happens in a year or two when reports come out showing how tens of thousand of jobs and residential solar disappear.

PG&E Claims Rooftop Solar is Racist! I'll disconnect if PGE NEM 3 passes!

PG&E claims home solar is racist, wants to gut program

OPINION by REUBEN LY Next year, your solar panels could cost you more than your monthly internet or cable TV bills, that’s because PG&E is trying to increase their bottom line by tying ho…

calcoastnews.com

 

[getakey]

I don’t know why you’re saying things like this – you’re not making sense to me. I am not “pulling from the grid the same amount that goes into your PWs“.

During warm months (no heat pump usage) I have very little power consumption during the day. My solar production (9kW system) both powers the house and charges the Powerwalls back up by early afternoon, with usually no need to draw from the grid during warm sunny days. After that, all excess is exported. Then after dark my power consumption is mostly handled by the Powerwalls – no need to pull power from the grid. So the power company sees much less actual, overall consumption because I’m able to use more of my daily solar production than I was able to use before I got the Powerwalls. Obviously I do still pull from the grid during non-sunny days or heavier usage days (charging cars, running heat in winter, less solar production in winter anyway).

I’m not talking about rate arbitrage or money saved. I’m talking only to the point that having Powerwalls allows you to make use of solar production that you would otherwise not be making use of and exporting during the day. Time-shifting allows you to avoid pulling power from the grid. (Sure, with Net Energy Metering, what I export can pay for what I import from the grid at other times but that’s not what the issue was about.)

There’s no need to lookup example numbers. Many days during warmer months the house is 100% self-powered now – zero grid draw at all. This obviously wasn’t possible with just solar before I got the two Powerwalls. Though the big reason I did it was to deal with PG&E outages – besides the usual hassle of going without power, this would also mean no water here due to no power for the pressure tank pump and well pump.

Edit: here’s an old graph from the Tesla app illustrating this:
View attachment 760819

We were talking apples and oranges. I was talking about Net Grid consumption and you were talking actual consumption. My bad