CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[skepticcyclist]

Times article about grid defection in NorCal.

Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid

Citing more blackouts, wildfires and higher electricity rates, a growing number of homeowners are choosing to build homes that run entirely on solar panels and batteries.

www.nytimes.com

Unfortunately the examples they give include rich Tech executives which adds fuel to the class warfare issue.

Too bad the overwhelming majority of CA residents are legally unable to go off grid.

 

[Merrill]

Cannot get in to read the article.

 

[skepticcyclist]

Cannot get in to read the article.

Neither can I. It is behind a paid wall

 

[h2ofun]

Frustrated with utilities, some are leaving the grid

The decline in solar and battery costs and growing frustrations with utilities appear to be laying the groundwork for more people to consider going off the grid.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[taphil]

Article is about true off grid homes in rural areas where it costs tens of thousands of $ to bring in grid service. Fairly irrelevant to most people and the NEM3 issue.

Quote to summarize the article:

"Off-grid systems are particularly attractive to people building new homes. That’s because installing a 125- to 300-foot overhead power line to a new home costs about $20,000, according to the California Public Utilities Commission. In places where lines have to be buried, installation runs about $78,000 for 100 feet.

That’s why Wim Coekaerts went off the grid in his 2,800-square-foot home in Woodside, near Stanford University.
His plot sits just across the street from homes that are connected to PG&E. But the utility told him it would cost $100,000 for new electric service, and building a trench for the line, based on regulatory estimates, could add $300,000 or more. So he spent $300,000 after federal tax credits on solar panels and a large battery.

After a year of living in the house, Mr. Coekaerts, an executive at Oracle, is happy with his choice. While his neighbors on PG&E have lost power three times, he said, he hasn’t gone without it “even for a nanosecond.”

 

[RKCRLR]

I grew up in Nevada City and it was quite common for people to live off the grid because of the costs involved to get power run. I now live a couple of counties south and there are plenty of people who still live off the grid for the same reason. It cost me ~$20k to run power when I built ~15 years ago.

With solar and storage costs going down and the CPUC proposing increasing the costs for solar customers to be connected to the grid I can see the trend increasing for new construction in rural areas. The bad part about this is that, as mentioned, now the grid doesn't get the benefit of the solar production.

 

[h2ofun]

I grew up in Nevada City and it was quite common for people to live off the grid because of the costs involved to get power run. I now live a couple of counties south and there are plenty of people who still live off the grid for the same reason. It cost me ~$20k to run power when I built ~15 years ago.

With solar and storage costs going down and the CPUC proposing increasing the costs for solar customers to be connected to the grid I can see the trend increasing for new construction in rural areas. The bad part about this is that, as mentioned, now the grid doesn't get the benefit of the solar production.

I live at lake of the pines. Am up in grass valley, and nevada city all the time

 

[holeydonut]

Cannot get in to read the article.

Try this amp link

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.seattletimes.com/business/frustrated-with-utilities-some-are-leaving-the-grid/%3Famp%3D1

 

[aesculus]

It cost me ~$20k to run power when I built ~15 years ago.

Are you the only one on your line? When I built back in '86 I was the only one on my line and had to front $20k too. Then when people were added I kept getting part of my money back. I still have about 500 feet of dedicated line and a transformer, but I think I got most of my $20k back. I forgot how much credit you get in terms of infrastructure before you have to shell out.

 

[Zorg]

Like the idea of folks going offgrid and telling IOUs to shove it

 

[aesculus]

I had some work done on my personal power pole last week by PG&E. After the job was over the foreman wanted to talk to me about my solar and Powerwalls to see if I liked them and how they worked. I told them I did but that I also depended on PG&E four BIG months of the year, so it was symbiotic. He laughed.

 

[RKCRLR]

Are you the only one on your line? When I built back in '86 I was the only one on my line and had to front $20k too. Then when people were added I kept getting part of my money back. I still have about 500 feet of dedicated line and a transformer, but I think I got most of my $20k back. I forgot how much credit you get in terms of infrastructure before you have to shell out.

I'm at the end of our road. I had to run 3 poles from my closest neighbor's pole and there are no parcels between us. PG&E made me an offer to keep the rights (I forget how much it would have cost) or hand the the poles over to them for maintenance. It didn't make sense to keep the rights.

 

[aesculus]

I'm at the end of our road. I had to run 3 poles from my closest neighbor's pole and there are no parcels between us. PG&E made me an offer to keep the rights (I forget how much it would have cost) or hand the the poles over to them for maintenance. It didn't make sense to keep the rights.

OK. I had to install 4 poles and there was a guy another 1/2 mile further than me. He refused to connect to the grid until at least two more homes were put in between him and me and just ran on a generator for a few years. This was not his only issue.

 

[RKCRLR]

OK. I had to install 4 poles and there was a guy another 1/2 mile further than me. He refused to connect to the grid until at least two more homes were put in between him and me and just ran on a generator for a few years. This was not his only issue.

The most frustrating for me is PG&E made me get signed permission forms from my neighbors to allow PG&E to trim the trees along the power lines where the poles ran along the private road. This shouldn't have been necessary since I already had a deeded utility easement along the road. I had to bribe one of my neighbors to sign the form.

 

[sunwarriors]

Times article about grid defection in NorCal.

Frustrated With Utilities, Some Californians Are Leaving the Grid

Citing more blackouts, wildfires and higher electricity rates, a growing number of homeowners are choosing to build homes that run entirely on solar panels and batteries.

www.nytimes.com

Unfortunately the examples they give include rich Tech executives which adds fuel to the class warfare issue.

Pretty much every new technology/benefit is taken advantage by wealthy people first.

Tesla Model S was a 100k+? car. Solar was more expensive ($10/W? in it's infancy). Flying on a suborbital space trip is 20 million?

The main benefit of this is hopefully, more technology is created/improved and we can all write off dependency on any IOU/Russia/Oil/Gas/you name it as cost drops. Problem is still natural gas and would be curious how powerful wind can be.

 

[BGbreeder]

Pretty much every new technology/benefit is taken advantage by wealthy people first.

Tesla Model S was a 100k+? car. Solar was more expensive ($10/W? in it's infancy). Flying on a suborbital space trip is 20 million?

The main benefit of this is hopefully, more technology is created/improved and we can all write off dependency on any IOU/Russia/Oil/Gas/you name it as cost drops. Problem is still natural gas and would be curious how powerful wind can be.

Storage, and businesses that can be variable consumers of power make a big difference to grid stability.

For instance; the ability to have vehicles defer, or to charge at higher levels depending on grid status could really help grids be more stable over the hours time scale in the face of variable generation sources (wind, solar).

More generally, storage will mean a mix of short term (EV, home battery/utility lithium battery storage) and long term (pumped hydro, flow batteries, compressed gas storage, gravity generators, and who knows what?), and we are in the early days. To store excess summer power for winter use would require the storage of enormous amounts of energy, and of enormous generation capacity, because at some point there will be cloudy days/week(s) with no wind. What happens then? That could mean a high standby capacity with some very large, or very numerous, plants that can step up for the rare events, just like peaker natural gas plants today.

We are looking at trillions of dollars of investment here, and I think that is really only going to happen only when the answers are clear, or there are governmental guarantees.

All the best,

BG

 

[kabin]

After a year of living in the house, Mr. Coekaerts, an executive at Oracle, is happy with his choice. While his neighbors on PG&E have lost power three times, he said, he hasn’t gone without it “even for a nanosecond.”

I would think he'd need generator backup to pull that off.

 

[h2ofun]

I would think he'd need generator backup to pull that off.

I believe he has propane for heat

 

[swedge]

• #1,656

This graph is from CPUC "White Paper" which proposes NEM 3 as a solution to a problem with NEM1,2. That problem, as described in the paper centers on the above graph: solar customers need peak period power, just like everyone else, but because they get credit for their exported solar, they pay less than everyone else. NEM3 advocates describe this as a subsidy of (rich) solar owners paid for by (poor) non-solar customers.

Back to the title of this entire thread, NEM 3 and energy products. It seems to me that the solution is widely distributed short term storage to level the demand. This will reduce peak generation load to the average, which is a fraction of the peak. By locating storage near to consumers, peak transmission loads are reduced as well.

Today, with or without solar, a customer with a battery can completely avoid using power during peak periods, thus saving the utility substantial money, according to the graph. This savings gets passed on to all customers.

I have a single Powerwall charged from my solar. I use essentially no grid power, all year long, during peak periods.

The NEM3 proposal starts with radically increasing cost for all solar customers, and then discounting that a bit for battery storage. That seems backwards to me, because battery completely eliminates the problem, solar or not.

What am I missing?

 

[Merrill]

Is it not the whole idea to save money by installing solar.