CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[J0hn_]

"The pilot demonstrated the “huge misconception about the benefits of TOU,” Hawiger told Utility Dive. There was no bill change for about 50% of PG&E customers and 40% to 50% of SCE customers, and there were bill increases for about 30% to 40% of customers. Only 10% to 15% benefited."

An emerging push for time-of-use rates sparks new debates about customer and grid impacts

Momentum is building behind time-of-use rates, but longstanding doubts about whether they are fair remain unresolved, threatening new efforts.

www.utilitydive.com

 

[BGbreeder]

I would be interested in hearing from others about whether "TOU" actually has a large effect on their use.

Prior to getting panels and powerwalls, I had no idea how much electricity I was specifically using on an hour by hour basis.

But mainly, how are normal people, rich or poor (ha!) expected to vary their use? Its not like everyone can quit work and use electricity during the day.

Most people use electricity at night in California in the hot months due to air conditioning. I mean, TOU doesn't change that.

I think that you are right, most people can't do a lot, up most can do some. Basically reduce the use of electric ovens, dryers, HVAC between 4 and 9pm, but not the "sandwiches for candlelit dinner" power reduction crud that is being suggested by some IOUs. Use a microwave or a toaster oven instead of a full oven. Get an induction hot plate. My electrical provider was offering fifteen dollar induction hot plates for awhile. Use a programmable thermostat to precool the house, etc., but you are right nothing that hasn't been talked about here a bunch of times.

There are little ways, some are even subsidized.

Everyone is different; some folks do have an idea of how much power they are using and when. Running a generator during an outage will certainly be educational, if you didn't know beforehand. When we were forced into a more restrictive TOU, we changed a few things, but not many. Mostly by not running high demand appliances 4-9.

On the HVAC, I wish that I had installed an ice bear when they were available. (Prefreeze a block of ice off peak, and just recirculate the Freon through it during peak.)

All the best,

BG

 

[getakey]

I would be interested in hearing from others about whether "TOU" actually has a large effect on their use.

Prior to getting panels and powerwalls, I had no idea how much electricity I was specifically using on an hour by hour basis.

But mainly, how are normal people, rich or poor (ha!) expected to vary their use? Its not like everyone can quit work and use electricity during the day.

Most people use electricity at night in California in the hot months due to air conditioning. I mean, TOU doesn't change that.

I moved from Bay Area with house with no AC to east of Sacramento with AC. Our first electric bill was for June was >$600. You learn real quick about TOU, but we added solar 1 month later

 

[sunwarriors]

I would be interested in hearing from others about whether "TOU" actually has a large effect on their use.

Prior to getting panels and powerwalls, I had no idea how much electricity I was specifically using on an hour by hour basis.

But mainly, how are normal people, rich or poor (ha!) expected to vary their use? Its not like everyone can quit work and use electricity during the day.

Most people use electricity at night in California in the hot months due to air conditioning. I mean, TOU doesn't change that.

I got solar last year and it's required if you want a net metering agreement to get PTO to be on TOU in San Diego.

Before that, I actually refused to be on TOU and opted out for the longest time till I got solar (so I didn't watch usage). It's very true that for everyone, ToU is not a money saver at all.

Once I was on ToU, I definitely adjusted my electricity use since being in San Diego, we have the most expensive energy rates in the nation (more than Hawaii). It's $61c/kWh I think (possibly higher this year) during summer peak if you're over the baseline (and most people are).

To change habits, this means no clothes washing/drying during peak times, no EV charging, we would turn off the AC from 4-9pm and just turn it back on after that window, etc...

I think even with solar now, I'd probably just crank up the AC while the sun is still generating to over-cool the house, then once that slows, wait till 9pm to flip on the AC again.

 

[aesculus]

I was one of the first Tiered plans on PG&E back in the 80's (E7). If you did not mind some inconvenience and planned things out a bit, you could really make out. But then PG&E started messing with the Tiers and pretty soon there was not much you could do. If you entered Tier 3 you were screwed.

So the goal was to put up enough solar in to keep you in Tier 2. That lasted for a few years and then they dropped E7 and forced me on E6. That was my first TOU. That went OK but again they played the rate game and made it unattractive. Luckily I got a Tesla and put up the EVA plan, which is also a heavily shifted TOU plan. You'll go broke consuming any peak power.

But of course with PWs and Solar, PG&E has to pay me a pretty penny for every kWh I send back during peak, and probably loses money when we time shift everything we can into off peak. As was mentioned by @BGbreeder and others above, when you can shift car charging, laundry, pumping down or up your household temps, irrigation and other time shiftable power draw, you can really make out.

This is why in theory I would like to use the new Export feature (which for some reason I don't have). Today I can only send back solar power when I make it. There is a lot of power in my PWs that just sits during the non winter months that could be generating me a lot of money. And since NEM and NBCs charges are based on kWh and not money, it's great.

Of course PG&E realizes this and has already kicked most off of EVA onto EV2, which is not anywhere near as lucrative for buyback. And those of us remaining have a ticking clock (it was up to 5 years about 18 months ago if you had just installed solar). So when my 5 years are up (about another 3 1/2 for me), I will have to look at other ways to maximize my return, if there are any left.

 

[Big Dog]

"The pilot demonstrated the “huge misconception about the benefits of TOU,” Hawiger told Utility Dive. There was no bill change for about 50% of PG&E customers and 40% to 50% of SCE customers, and there were bill increases for about 30% to 40% of customers. Only 10% to 15% benefited."

An emerging push for time-of-use rates sparks new debates about customer and grid impacts

Momentum is building behind time-of-use rates, but longstanding doubts about whether they are fair remain unresolved, threatening new efforts.

www.utilitydive.com

I'm surprised the benefit % was that high. I'm a cynic and just figured everyone would be paying the same or more. (Personally don't have solar, and am retired, so don't drive much (two Teslas), electric kitchen. We opted out of ToU as even SoCal Edison's online estimator said ToU would cost us more per month.)

 

[sunwarriors]

Is it even approved this 15 year change vs. 20 years grandfathering? The IOUs seem to post it like it's fact, but I really hope lawsuits fly and they back down and keep the old terms as is and only adjust things like peak rates, etc...

Under the current structure, I still don't see how any of it will ever work out other than all IOUs get broken up and locally owned/managed without an investor based profit motive.

 

[Sky Blue]

I just received an email from SCE with a 'draft' letter they are thinking about sending out along with a link to a survey. I would post the link, but if you try to open it you get "Your response for this survey has already been received. Thank you for your time and interest.")

They are still talking about reducing grandfather installations from 20 years down to 15

The draft letter says the CPUC has reduced grandfathered installations from 20 years to 15 years. But the CPUC hasn't released their NEM 3 decision, and I understood they were still debating the proposal to reduce the NEM 3 grandfather period. Does SCE have inside information about what the CPUC's final NEM 3 decision will look like?

 

[skepticcyclist]

I would be interested in hearing from others about whether "TOU" actually has a large effect on their use.

It doesn't for us since we have battery backup. Don't use a single watt from the grid during peak time.

 

[skepticcyclist]

Most people use electricity at night in California in the hot months due to air conditioning. I mean, TOU doesn't change that.

That depends where you're at. Even in mot of SoCal on 100+ degree days, the evenings cool down quickly with a sea breeze. Here in eastern LA County we just open the windows before we go to bed as it will already be down into the 70s by that time.

 

[cwied]

This is why in theory I would like to use the new Export feature (which for some reason I don't have).

It appears like at this point this feature does not get turned on unless you ask Tesla for it. Their customer service reps also are not very familiar with the feature, so it may take some work to get them to enable it.

 

[Onetwothree]

I did similar. If you call PG&E they will verbally tell you that that grandfathering goes off the latest PTO which is inconsistent with other documents. I asked for something in writing stating that and they refused. I filed a complaint with the CPUC and PG&E responded with an email stating it goes off the earliest PTO.
So, in your case, it is 15 years from 2010 unless they make special allowances.

I got the same info for upgrades/modifications to an existing system. However, I was recently able to confirm with PG&E that if you install a completely new system (IE removed all wires, conduits, panels, etc), your 20 year grandfathering is reset to the new PTO date. Not sure that applies to many folks but wanted to share in case it's useful.

 

[RKCRLR]

I got the same info for upgrades/modifications to an existing system. However, I was recently able to confirm with PG&E that if you install a completely new system (IE removed all wires, conduits, panels, etc), your 20 year grandfathering is reset to the new PTO date. Not sure that applies to many folks but wanted to share in case it's useful.

Yep, seems like a waste. At some point I will need to start replacing things (I already have a string inverter that is already over 10 years old). People will start making cost/benefit decisions on if they better off repairing a system, decommissioning a system, going off-grid (if possible), not participating in NEM (if possible), or ripping everything out and starting over depending on what the CPUC puts in place.

 

[holeydonut]

At 20 years from now I plan on ripping my azz out of my house and moving. Perfect timing IMO.

 

[Tim-in-CA]

The draft letter says the CPUC has reduced grandfathered installations from 20 years to 15 years. But the CPUC hasn't released their NEM 3 decision, and I understood they were still debating the proposal to reduce the NEM 3 grandfather period. Does SCE have inside information about what the CPUC's final NEM 3 decision will look like?

I just received the SCE survey as well ... this is complete BS if it ends up going through. I gave a scathing review of the letter and feedback that NEM3 is a terrible idea ... but SCE (and other electric companies) are the ONLY ones that benefit.

 

[Southpasfan]

"The pilot demonstrated the “huge misconception about the benefits of TOU,” Hawiger told Utility Dive. There was no bill change for about 50% of PG&E customers and 40% to 50% of SCE customers, and there were bill increases for about 30% to 40% of customers. Only 10% to 15% benefited."

An emerging push for time-of-use rates sparks new debates about customer and grid impacts

Momentum is building behind time-of-use rates, but longstanding doubts about whether they are fair remain unresolved, threatening new efforts.

www.utilitydive.com

Which is about what I would guess, and it would be shocking if 10 percent of people who somehow reduce their bills are not completely offset by 30 to 40% who have an increase.

My point is, that this utility driven alleged "conservation tips" is all BS. These utilities may be inefficient and over spend on "the grid" but that is in essence a separate issue. The issue is, "the grid" whatever it is, is paid for by usage of KWH.

The grid does not get any cheaper if people conserve energy, no matter how they do it.

Moreover, at with 80 to 90 percent of a Kwh charge being "for the grid" (as opposed to the 3 cents to 6 cents price of the actual electricity).

It doesn' take an economist or plant in the accounting department of an IOU to realize that they are going after both solar and solar plus ESS because their business plan is unsustainable unless kwh usage GOES UP OVER TIME.

That's because in no Star Trek universe can the cost of the grid go down over time.

 

[nwdiver]

The grid does not get any cheaper if people conserve energy, no matter how they do it.

... but it ABSOLUTELY gets cheaper depending on WHEN they use energy. I saw a stat a while back that ~80% of the cost of the grid is the peak 15% of use. That is why we need some kind of market signal to encourage people to charge their cars and program their water heaters to heat at ~2am instead of 8pm.

 

[cwied]

From discussions here, I gather that Arizona has some plans that have demand charges based on peak power usage during peak hours. This would seem to be a better reflection of the grid cost than kWh usage. I wonder whether that is something that's being considered in California.

 

[nwdiver]

From discussions here, I gather that Arizona has some plans that have demand charges based on peak power usage during peak hours. This would seem to be a better reflection of the grid cost than kWh usage. I wonder whether that is something that's being considered in California.

The problem with residential demand charges is the usage of an individual home is too variable to really provide an accurate representation and it gets 'smoothed' out across the rate class. Let's say you have something come up early in your billing cycle and need to quickly charge your car at home during peak hours for 1 hr. What would make more sense? A $150 demand fee for the entire month making any further usage during peak hours irrelevant or $0.45/kWh for the 11kW you needed on that one day?

 

[Southpasfan]

... but it ABSOLUTELY gets cheaper depending on WHEN they use energy. I saw a stat a while back that ~80% of the cost of the grid is the peak 15% of use. That is why we need some kind of market signal to encourage people to charge their cars and program their water heaters to heat at ~2am instead of 8pm.

I think that's utility company nonsense.

We have CAISO, which anyone can go to and lists the spot price of electricity. You can see it varies between 3 cents and 6 cents at peak times.

You would expect, at a minimum, peak v. non peak to vary by like 3 cents. Of course it doesn't. Except in LADWP and other utilities where it does in fact only vary by that much.

This "most of the cost of the grid is peak usage" is creative accounting. The production of electricity is mostly, but not 100% separate from the distribution of electricity, the utilities, even the IOUs, are not completely vertically integrated. I actually went down this rabbit hole and looked at PG&E and SCE audited financials.

In each case they have a "cost of electricity" which is separate from their other costs, and is in line with only like 10% of a cost of a kwh being the actual electricity.

Some IOUs actually have invested in power plants. Well, unlike "the grid" which does nothing except deliver electricity, yes, an actual power plant costs more and actually produces electricity. But you can't allocate the entire cost of the power plant to peak usage, even if you build it to cover peak usage. That's technically correct but practically misleading.

Its like a restaurant open for lunch and dinner. You can certainly serve the same hamburger for lunch and dinner. You can either charge the same for the hamburger, or, if you want to price dinner a bit higher because market rates support it, that's fine.

But what the utilities are doing is like saying that "the only reason we built this large kitchen is for dinner hamburgers, therefore each dinner hambuger is more expensive by some huge factor as opposed to a lunch hamburger." With that reasoning a dinner hamburger ought to be like $350.

Whatever a power plant costs we know the value of the electricity it produces.

That statistic you cite is just an effort to justify crazy high peak rates. Peak rates are a complete construct.

And its not like it even has to be proven, prior to TOU they used, and still do, tiered rates, which also don't make sense since using more electricity doesn't mean you use more of the grid. The grid works fine no matter how much (more or less) flows to your particular house.