CPUC NEM 3.0 discussion

[sunwarriors]

The problem with batteries and VPP in CA so far is that it's only during limited time events I think. We'll know how much people are actually paid in March, but I think the payment is only the difference from what is normally discharged during the last 7 days.

So if a consumer normally uses 8kWh of their PW from 4-9pm during a non-event, and decides to export 100%, they would only get paid on the 5kWh rather than all 13kWhs (assuming no reserve). Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. Also, after you drain your batteries to reserve, you'll be back to pulling from the grid during the event paying the highest rates which eats into some of the credits.


From reading a lot of posts here and reddit, a lot of folks have trouble enough getting any batteries and can't make ROI work. Most here didn't do energy storage for any ROI and VPP helps bring that closer, but I have doubts PG&E would allow folks to export everything every night even when there is not a power demand event.

Those numbers in the above post are also in MWhs. Outside of 1 or 2 hours of super high rates, the utility is better buying it off the spot market since it's mostly all lower than $3000/MWh so they are probably not going to use VPP I don't think unless it's really bad.

 

[KHYE]

Would the buyer of a house with solar under NEM2 become NEM3?

I read that NEM 2 is still transferrable.

 

[getakey]

I read that NEM 2 is still transferrable.

thanks

 

[getakey]

this sounds like BS. Has anyone been able to submit an Interconnection Agreement before their install is complete?

"It’s worth noting that you do not need a permit, a completed install, or a completed inspection to be grandfathered into NEM 2. However, there is a three year deadline to complete the actual construction of the solar system as long as the paperwork is filed and accurate."

What is NEM 3.0 and How Will it Impact California Solar Owners in 2024?

California utilities have approved Net Energy Metering (NEM) 3.0, substantially altering the energy savings of going solar.

www.solar.com

 

[Vines]

this sounds like BS. Has anyone been able to submit an Interconnection Agreement before their install is complete?

"It’s worth noting that you do not need a permit, a completed install, or a completed inspection to be grandfathered into NEM 2. However, there is a three year deadline to complete the actual construction of the solar system as long as the paperwork is filed and accurate."

What is NEM 3.0 and How Will it Impact California Solar Owners in 2024?

California utilities have approved Net Energy Metering (NEM) 3.0, substantially altering the energy savings of going solar.

www.solar.com

All the time, except with new construction we cannot submit early often times. If the customer have permanent power, we can do everything except upload the signed off permit.

There might be some PGE movement on this item lately however.

 

[getakey]

All the time, except with new construction we cannot submit early often times. If the customer have permanent power, we can do everything except upload the signed off permit.

There might be some PGE movement on this item lately however.

A bit confused. Are you saying you have submitted agreement before install?

 

[Daniel L]

Currently in the process of getting a system installed at my new home

My previous home's solar install timeline in Orange County

9/25/2020 - Ordered
9/28/2020 - Reviewed and accepted design
10/05/2020 - Signed interconnection agreement
10/24/2020 - Ready to Schedule Install
??11/xx/2020 - I can't find the install date but it was early November
11/17/2020 - City Final Inspection
11/25/2020 - Interconnection agreement accepted
12/07/2020 - Interconnection application deemed complete and valid
12/07/2020 - PTO



Now I'm wondering which part of the process will lock us into NEM 2.0 - when the agreement is accepted or when it's deemed complete and valid -

 

[Vines]

A bit confused. Are you saying you have submitted agreement before install?

I am currently doing an expansion on my own home. I do not yet have a permit, but I have most of the interconnection completed, paid for and the advance engineering is accepted for my system size.

All that is left is to get the BP, install and final the system before we can take that final step with interconnection.

PGE will be making an obvious and easy process to make sure people don't get stuck on NEM 3.0 if they were paying attention. So far it looks like a "Complete interconnection application" is their milestone, and this is what I now have.

 

[h2ofun]

All the time, except with new construction we cannot submit early often times. If the customer have permanent power, we can do everything except upload the signed off permit.

There might be some PGE movement on this item lately however.

My interconnection agreement only got submitted after I got the county final if I remember correctly.

 

[dahaz22]

I ordered Nov 3 and my site survey is not until mid January.
I will most likely start looking at high rated local installers see if i can get it done before April.

Anyone got any luck getting their $400 deposit from Tesla? Other than providing a design, they havent done much in almost 3 months.

 

[RayB]

I ordered Nov 3 and my site survey is not until mid January.
I will most likely start looking at high rated local installers see if i can get it done before April.

Anyone got any luck getting their $400 deposit from Tesla? Other than providing a design, they havent done much in almost 3 months.

That’s odd. Contact your sales rep. We ordered on Dec 3rd, and had our site survey done yesterday. We’re located in San Carlos.

 

[sunwarriors]

NEM3.0 FAQ for folks still shopping:

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/znpjyr

I was pretty sure SDG&E wasn't going to be 75% less credit, nice (not nice really) to see we're closer to 86% less credit. For last summer, this means you'd be charged 58.8c (higher for 2023 for sure though) and credited 8.232c (vs. 14.7c at 75%).

Hopefully they will have other options, but they only list EV-TOU5 qualifying now which sorta sucks if you don't need to charge an EV nor use power much from 12-6am . The rates for outside of that window is worst (On-Peak 63.9c vs. 58.8c and it comes with a $16/month minimum charge).

 

[dahaz22]

That’s odd. Contact your sales rep. We ordered on Dec 3rd, and had our site survey done yesterday. We’re located in San Carlos.

I waited a month till i asked my project advisor. His reply was basically to tough it up, there were no openings. Basically just wait till i get notification in account.

San Diego.

 

[iPlug]

Kind of perverse for environmental reasons, but anyone try to pencil out if NEM 3.0 economics would work for those that already have a home generator and then add NEM 3.0 solar PV then only consume from the grid during the cheapest off-peak and non-solar hours?

I'm not spun up on rules re: fossil home generators for export (so don't know if it would be allowed to export during peak summer rate evening hours to capitalize on cost opportunity) or any systems that can balance solar PV and home generators and isolation from the grid, but say if able to be isolated from the grid when running a home generator...

 

[getakey]

Kind of perverse for environmental reasons, but anyone try to pencil out if NEM 3.0 economics would work for those that already have a home generator and then add NEM 3.0 solar PV then only consume from the grid during the cheapest off-peak and non-solar hours?

I'm not spun up on rules re: fossil home generators for export (so don't know if it would be allowed to export during peak summer rate evening hours to capitalize on cost opportunity) or any systems that can balance solar PV and home generators and isolation from the grid, but say if able to be isolated from the grid when running a home generator...

I might be wrong, but I'm thinking running a generator is way more expensive than pulling from the grid.

 

[iPlug]

I might be wrong, but I'm thinking running a generator is way more expensive than pulling from the grid.

Yeah, that’s my gut suspicion too.

I don’t know about the efficiency losses when running a home generator comparing the cost of piped natural gas against utility peak electricity prices.

Beyond that it would also be nice to know if someday permitted if one were allowed a home generator to feed the grid during the highest peak summer days at spot market prices.

Quite possibly, the math doesn’t work out for even that scenario.

 

[miimura]

Kind of perverse for environmental reasons, but anyone try to pencil out if NEM 3.0 economics would work for those that already have a home generator and then add NEM 3.0 solar PV then only consume from the grid during the cheapest off-peak and non-solar hours?

I'm not spun up on rules re: fossil home generators for export (so don't know if it would be allowed to export during peak summer rate evening hours to capitalize on cost opportunity) or any systems that can balance solar PV and home generators and isolation from the grid, but say if able to be isolated from the grid when running a home generator...

I ran some quick numbers based on a Generac 10kW stationary natural gas generator and my PG&E gas bill

$2.77/therm (Tier 2 gas price on 11/28/2022 bill)
There are 99976 Btu/US Therm
datasheet running efficiency at 1/2 load (5kW) is 101 ft^3/hr of Nat Gas. Datasheet says ft^2/hr x 1000 for BTU/hr

So, $2.77 * 101000 / 99976 / 5 = $0.56/kWh

This is almost exactly the same as the PG&E EV2 Summer Peak rate. Seems like it's not worth it to put that wear and tear on a reciprocating piston generator.

Also, you would have to figure out how to grid tie the generator's output. In a normal case, it's only used for backup and the waveform directly follows the engine rpm, so you can't connect it to the grid. The easiest thing I can think of is to use a hybrid inverter that has generator battery charging, then export energy from the grid tied inverter. This is not practical for a Powerwall owner.

 

[RKCRLR]

I suspect the only way a generator would make financial sense is if a solar tax is imposed and rates get to the point that it makes more sense to go off grid (assuming this is allowed by the government). The generator could then be used when solar isn't producing enough and batteries are depleted.

 

[RKCRLR]

One of the things I wonder about is if the new houses being built that require solar will have a future requirement the solar be working if the house is resold. I'm assuming the solar will come with a typical 20-25 year warranty on the solar. But what if the warranty is expired or the solar installer has gone bankrupt and the solar fails? Will there be a future requirement to fix it?

 

[BGbreeder]

Yeah, that’s my gut suspicion too.

I don’t know about the efficiency losses when running a home generator comparing the cost of piped natural gas against utility peak electricity prices.

Beyond that it would also be nice to know if someday permitted if one were allowed a home generator to feed the grid during the highest peak summer days at spot market prices.

Quite possibly, the math doesn’t work out for even that scenario.

I've run the numbers, and yes, it is more expensive. For those folks in clean air districts, there are also rules on when generators can be run, though I am not sure where Rocklin falls in that respect.