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CR Engineers Show a Tesla Will Drive With No One in the Driver's Seat

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Humans are incredibly ingenious at finding ways to do stupid things and the least safe part of every car is the person responsible for operating it.

I agree with this, but there is a LOT of low hanging fruit in how much bad behavior a proper driver monitoring system can prevent.

It prevents people from texting on their cell phones while having an L2 system engaged. This one is really important because L2 systems give the perception that its safe to text. We've even had people on TMC admit that the reason they got into accident while on AP was because they were using their cell phone.

The only way to defeat distracted is using a proper driver monitoring system.

I'm sure lots of inventive people will figure out hacks to defeat these systems, but if the hacks are sufficiently complicated than most people won't bother.

Europe is going to be require all cars to have a proper driver monitoring system be 2023. So why wouldn't we simply follow their lead?

Now I can understand being hesitant in following Europe's lead because their also going to require cars to obey electronically set speed limits. I think you can temporarily override it, but for the most part they're going to not allow people to exceed the speed limit.

I can't see the US adopting that because a big part of the US car culture is the freedom of the open road. We still want to be cowboys despite the fact that the world has changed.
 
So the manufacturer of the car involved in the Utah "Bird Box Challenge" needs to do better?...

That pickup truck never claims that it is FSD, Level 5, robotaxi that can net its owner $30,000 annually profit by working hard alone on its own, picking up rides while its owner is busy at work or sleep at home.

That pickup truck is Level 1.

When a manufacturer makes a claim, it is responsible for that claim.
 
Liability wise, the Dos and Don'ts are in the manual. Not reading the manual is no excuse. It hasn't been for a while. And yeah, I read mine. Not entirely but probably more than most people.
Do you re-read the manual for every software update to see if it changed? Because Tesla gives minimal change notes, and doesn't always update the manual along with SW releases. When I got my car in 2016 it took them almost a year to update it for AP2- for instance it said it had cruise control, read speed limit signs and had automatic windshield wipers, none of which it had. How many times should I have read it in the last 5 years as they have gone from not even having cruise to what they have now?
Releasing a product in the USA which can only be safely used after a thorough, well considered read of the user manual generally doesn't pass the bar of an acceptably safe product. Why does my furnace have an interlock and turn off when I open the filter door, when it could just say in the manual to not do that?
 
When there's death in new technology, people want answers and it doesn't matter which brand it is.
A long time ago, it struck me that our present automotive technology and infrastructure would never be allowed to get started in our currently litigious and risk-averse society. Not only because of the traffic accident rates that we're aware of yet largely ignore, but in many other respects, notably the fuel used and the near lack of operator safeguards:
  • The cars run on controlled explosions of a highly combustible, toxic and caustic liquid that is pumped around the vehicle and under the passenger compartment under pressure, with multiple points of failure that can (and do every day) result in fires, explosions, or at best, release of poisonous liquid and noxious fumes into the local environment.
  • At gas stations in most states, untrained consumers are permitted (expected) personally to dispense the dangerous fuel into their vehicles, gushing at many gallons per minute, easily and often resulting in significant spills or bodily contact.
  • Further risky behavior such as smoking, operation of machinery, presence of young children, and widespread but unsafe storage practices are discouraged, yet commonly practiced without enforcement consequences.
  • The vehicles are operated by (mostly) lightly-trained individuals, many of whom would not be trusted by their own families to responsibly care for the baby nor to watch over last week's paycheck.
  • Almost no technological safeguards exist to prevent children, drunk or high operators, hot-heads, show-offs or psychopaths from doing whatever they want with the two-ton projectile.

To be clear, I'm not at all advocating increased restrictions on the above, nor am I an anti-ICE crusader at all - I'm simply reminding everyone of the status quo to achieve a sense of perspective and balance.

The dangers and failure rates of driving autonomy, though important to recognize and minimize within reason, are miniscule in comparison. Gasoline cars and fuel-supply infrastructure are acceptable to us only because of our familiarity, and catastrophes have become somewhat more rare from over a century of experience, with slowly-improving engineering and supply practices helping to counter the constantly increasing density of vehicles and filling stations. Driving is a privilege that most governments have rightly been loathe to over-regulate because of its universal participation and appeal, compared to the normal tendency to over-regulate everything else and justify it as necessary protection from those other bad people or businesses.

In contrast, it is generally agreed by thoughtful observers (not by sensationalists or luddites) that increasing deployment of driving automation will greatly reduce the human risks. Let's not suppress reporting and discussion of failures and remedies along the way, but let's encourage a sense of perspective as we experience the development of this incredibly significant technology.
 
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Do you re-read the manual for every software update to see if it changed? Because Tesla gives minimal change notes, and doesn't always update the manual along with SW releases. When I got my car in 2016 it took them almost a year to update it for AP2- for instance it said it had cruise control, read speed limit signs and had automatic windshield wipers, none of which it had. How many times should I have read it in the last 5 years as they have gone from not even having cruise to what they have now?
Releasing a product in the USA which can only be safely used after a thorough, well considered read of the user manual generally doesn't pass the bar of an acceptably safe product. Why does my furnace have an interlock and turn off when I open the filter door, when it could just say in the manual to not do that?
I do check every so often for new manual releases, yes, and I do read every single change log, fully.
 
I must be too dense, I don't.

On a related topic, CR (and all of us) are kind of creating a how-to guide on defeating Tesla's systems. Many people could not on their own hack the system, they lack the mechanical, electrical, and computer training. Plus they'd be scared of breaking the car or somehow getting tattled-on by the car. I'm just wondering if we're enabling a whole new bunch of copy-cats.

Agree. I've seen lots of new videos popping up of "FSD" on social media recently that use this methodology. Obviously it's not that hard to defeat.

 
That pickup truck never claims that it is FSD, Level 5, robotaxi that can net its owner $30,000 annually profit by working hard alone on its own, picking up rides while its owner is busy at work or sleep at home.

That pickup truck is Level 1.

When a manufacturer makes a claim, it is responsible for that claim.
Can you show me where Tesla says it was currently a level 5 robot taxi? No, because your statement is silly and false. Why you so desperate?
 
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Can you show me where Tesla says it was currently a level 5 robot taxi? No, because your statement is silly and false. Why you so desperate?

Sorry I was bad at mixing up the tense in grammar. To be correct, the tense should be in the future: Tesla has claimed its system will be L5 publically, (but with DMV, it will be L2 in its final version).

And some people might misunderstand that the car can self-drive now without waiting for the future.

If people keep dying each time they test it out then they would get the message that Self Driving doesn't work right now. But it must work for some tests because there are numerous demonstrations and that's why people keep testing it.
 
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were is your source for this? Anytime I hear anyone from Tesla talking about autopilot it’s about how you have to monitor the system at all times.
Let me first point you to "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving". Ask someone what FSD means with no other context, and you think they would say "a system which requires constant monitoring by a human"? These are not the names you'd use if you wanted people to be clear of the capabilities of the system.

For a video, we've had this since 2016, right on Tesla's site (and still there):

Even better, these videos are the first thing you see when you to to tesla.com/autopilot.

Find me a video by Tesla that shows you how to safely use the system within the current design expectations.
 
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Let me first point you to "Autopilot" and "Full Self Driving". Ask someone what FSD means with no other context, and you think they would say "a system which requires constant monitoring by a human"? These are not the names you'd use if you wanted people to be clear of the capabilities of the system.

For a video, we've had this since 2016, right on Tesla's site (and still there):

Even better, these videos are the first thing you see when you to to tesla.com/autopilot.

Find me a video by Tesla that shows you how to safely use the system within the current design expectations.
Can you clarify what your point is? Everyone (and I honestly don’t believe this is an exaggeration) who puts down 8-10k in FSD did read the Not-nearly-fine print that says it is NOT autonomous but they hope it will be. The average joe who gets randomly asked that question couldn’t care less because he doesn’t own a Tesla. Everyone who owns knows. Literally everyone. Again I might be wrong but I do believe my statement here. So I call it FUD because talking about Tesla gets clicks. People either love it or hate it. Both ends are passion driven and ends with a click.
 
Can you clarify what your point is? Everyone (and I honestly don’t believe this is an exaggeration) who puts down 8-10k in FSD did read the Not-nearly-fine print that says it is NOT autonomous but they hope it will be. The average joe who gets randomly asked that question couldn’t care less because he doesn’t own a Tesla. Everyone who owns knows. Literally everyone. Again I might be wrong but I do believe my statement here. So I call it FUD because talking about Tesla gets clicks. People either love it or hate it. Both ends are passion driven and ends with a click.

It's just like paying fully for an entree that hasn't been cooked yet but I knew that I would be in luck because the executive chef would describe how great my food would be. All that time, I could read what fine prints on the menu but I was believing the executive chef more.

Part of me knew that there wasn't any FSD. However, with all the demonstration from Tesla's video with a driver in the seat but not touching anything and amateurs' videos on Youtube demonstrating that the car could drive without a driver in the seat, with all the tweets, interviews and how could I mistaken when there was a tweet:


That's it! I didn't want to miss the boat and it was easy for me to pay up after all the overexaggerated explanations of how soon Tesla Autonomous Vehicles would arrive.

I don't think it's about love or hate but it's about transparency: Please don't try to mess up people's heads with conflicting information. If people misunderstood, it can be deadly.

It's not about love or hate but it's about life and death.
 
It's just like paying fully for an entree that hasn't been cooked yet but I knew that I would be in luck because the executive chef would describe how great my food would be. All that time, I could read what fine prints on the menu but I was believing the executive chef more.

Part of me knew that there wasn't any FSD. However, with all the demonstration from Tesla's video with a driver in the seat but not touching anything and amateurs' videos on Youtube demonstrating that the car could drive without a driver in the seat, with all the tweets, interviews and how could I mistaken when there was a tweet:


That's it! I didn't want to miss the boat and it was easy for me to pay up after all the overexaggerated explanations of how soon Tesla Autonomous Vehicles would arrive.

I don't think it's about love or hate but it's about transparency: Please don't try to mess up people's heads with conflicting information. If people misunderstood, it can be deadly.

It's not about love or hate but it's about life and death.
I don’t fully agree. All I see is people going all sorts of ways and places to take away the individual responsibility and liability. See my post about injury and death warnings. How much is enough? Yes Elon’s tweets are dumb and overhyped. Show me a case where, in trial, a tweet was cited, but with an unfulfilled promise. On the other hand, I can remember a couple of cases from the top of my head that cited the operations manual and how the case was decided in the company’s favor and not the (dumb) individual for not following it.
 
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Sorry I was bad at mixing up the tense in grammar. To be correct, the tense should be in the future: Tesla has claimed its system will be L5 publically, (but with DMV, it will be L2 in its final version).
Eventually they will.

And some people might misunderstand that the car can self-drive now without waiting for the future.

people misunderstand all kinds of things. That’s how we get antivaxers, flat earthers, and incels.
 
I think it's a joke by Elon. They are the very last in actual self driving development yet have made the most money selling it. Congrats on getting money form customers and never delivering.
 

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Can you clarify what your point is? Everyone (and I honestly don’t believe this is an exaggeration) who puts down 8-10k in FSD did read the Not-nearly-fine print that says it is NOT autonomous but they hope it will be.
I see you joined about 8 months ago. Tesla has been selling FSD for 54 months and has changed the definition constantly. The idea that "everyone that put down $10k read the fine print" is completely false. FSD has been priced as low as free at points. There was no "fine print" in 2016 or 2017, there was hardly a manual. When you bought a car in 2016 to 2019 (literally more than 50% of the time AP2 has existed), this is what you were told FSD was:

Build upon Enhanced Autopilot and order Full Self-Driving Capability on your Tesla. This doubles the number of active cameras from four to eight, enabling full self-driving in almost all circumstances, at what we believe will be a probability of safety at least twice as good as the average human driver. The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat. For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle.

All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. If you don’t say anything, the car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. Your Tesla will figure out the optimal route, navigate urban streets (even without lane markings), manage complex intersections with traffic lights, stop signs and roundabouts, and handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. When you arrive at your destination, simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode, automatically search for a spot and park itself. A tap on your phone summons it back to you.

Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval.

There's no language in there that FSD will require a lot of hand holding, monitoring, etc. It says it just needs regulatory approval, not tons of using customers as testers. The fact that Tesla has tied getting stop sign and light behaviors to having paid for FSD really muddies the water on what you should be expecting, given you "paid for FSD" and now you "got FSD." I mean, FSD as described is clearly L4, yet Tesla is only now giving L2 systems to people that paid for L4, while not giving those L2 systems to people that only paid for L2. Why should I believe that the feature only available to people that paid for FSD requires a lot of monitoring?

Can you point me to the "fine print" that everyone reads when they buy FSD? I can go into my app on my phone and just click "upgrade" for $5k on my 2018 vehicle. It lists "FULL SELF DRIVING CAPABILITY" as the function. No disclaimers. Nothing to sign. Just click and they bill me $5K and it pops up in the car. It also hilariously lists "navigate on autopilot, auto lane change, autopark, and summon" as features I will get even though my car already has those as part of EAP. Which kind of eats into the story that Tesla is careful about their messaging given they can't even accurately tell me what I'll get for my $5K (which is just stop sign/light detection).
 
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