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Creep on or off and why

rsk12

Member
Dec 30, 2017
27
5
Settle
Hi

Just wondering if you have the Creep on or off in your MS. I turned it off and drove for a while and noticed that when I come to a stop the car would roll backwards if I took my foot off the brake if the road has a slope. is there any advantage in driving with the creep off.

Thanks in advance
rsk
 
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cmal

Member
Mar 22, 2018
31
62
Austin, TX
My previous car had a manual transmission, so I turned creep mode off. I don't know if there's an advantage, but it seems more natural to me. I did notice that the brake will stay engaged once I touch the brake pedal after stopping, even after I take my foot off the brake. I haven't tried it on a steep slope though, so I'm not totally sure about the backward drift.
 

d21mike

Active Member
Aug 28, 2017
1,098
722
Torrance, CA 90503
The (H) icon is like an emergency break to hold the car in place. It works the same with creep on or off. But seems to come in with less pressure on the break with creep off. I use it often at a stop in either case. I have been using creep on and recently tried creep off for a few days then went back to creep on. Mainly for parking in the garage. It was not as hard as I thought using creep off but I think safer with creep on for a least my wife who drives infrequent.
 

NikeWings

Active Member
Apr 7, 2016
2,117
2,819
California
Creep off, and use hillhold when stopped whether hillside or flat.
Took some time and practice, but I have a better feel for my car and how it behaves with no creep, and can maneuver it anywhere just fine. .Just a personal preference......
 
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WarpedOne

Supreme Premier
Aug 17, 2006
4,364
6,567
Slovenia, Europe
Creep on: you let off accelerator to slowly back in the garage. You get a bit distracted and when you again look into the mirror you are just inches away from the wall. You jump the brake. But miss it and hit the accelerator.
You make the news as another unintended acceleration guy.

Creep of: You don't press accelerator you do not move.
 

weak_pig

Member
Apr 2, 2016
143
133
Island
With Creep off, you need to depress the accelerator to reverse/back up right?

Will you get confused that you are stepping on the brake and press the accelerator hard with the intention to come to a full stop and end up reversing full speed into the garage wall?
 
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cwerdna

Active Member
Jul 11, 2012
3,560
2,451
SF Bay Area, CA
Creep on: you let off accelerator to slowly back in the garage. You get a bit distracted and when you again look into the mirror you are just inches away from the wall. You jump the brake. But miss it and hit the accelerator.
Huh? In conventional automatic transmission cars and my pre-'18 Leaf (which has no option to turn off creep), when you pull forward into a parking space or back in, you modulate the brake pedal when you're about to come to a stop.

I almost never back into my garage, unless I have to and the other car is not in there, as well. If you looked in the garage of every private residence in the US, I suspect you'd find that 80 to 90+% of the vehicles are pulled forward into the garage, not backed in.
Creep of: You don't press accelerator you do not move.
True, but if someone is used to an automatic transmission (virtually every single light vehicle sold to consumers in the US), they have creep and the directional cueing benefits below. They could accidentally fall back to a bad habit and crash when pulling forward into a spot.

Someone at my work with an EV posted to one of our EV internal mailing lists (they were a Spark EV driver for years and later a Bolt) about somehow accidentally crashing their Bolt while pulling forward into a parking spot. While we didn't get a final answer as to what happened (driver error, problem w/car, etc.), someone hypothesized that the person drove in L mode which has no forward creep and were used to feathering the brake before (on cars with creep) but screwed up and applied those motions to the accelerator.

Per Federal Register, Volume 68 Issue 94 (Thursday, May 15, 2003) from Prius links.
(emphasis mine)
B. Safety Importance of Creep Force in Cueing the Driver--Creep Force
in Reverse
...
When the current wording of FMVSS No. 102 was adopted in 1968,
vehicles were equipped mostly with ICEs and mechanical/hydraulic
automatic transmissions, which have always provided creep force. Today,
drivers can rely on creep force to avoid crashes that would result from
shifting errors. When a driver places the automatic transmission shift
lever in a drive position and reduces service brake pressure slowly by
easing up on the service brake pedal, the vehicle begins to move slowly
in the direction that has been selected by the transmission shift
lever. This creep force in the correct direction cues the driver that
when the accelerator is depressed, the vehicle will move in the
anticipated direction.
It is important for creep force to initiate motion of the vehicle
before the driver's foot leaves the service brake pedal and before the
service brakes are completely disengaged. Then, if a shifting error has
occurred, the driver's foot is still on the brake pedal and the error
can be safely and quickly corrected.
For example, if there is no creep
force associated with an automatic transmission equipped vehicle and
the driver thought he had selected Drive but instead had selected
Reverse, when he removes his foot from the brake and depresses the
accelerator, the vehicle would unexpectedly move rearward instead of
forward. The unexpected movement of the vehicle rearward may cause the
driver to further depress the accelerator. By the time the driver
realizes his mistake and applies the brake again, the vehicle may have
moved rearward a considerable distance and possibly struck a pedestrian
or an object, causing injury and/or property damage.
From years of driving ICE-powered automatic transmission vehicles,
drivers are familiar with cues in the direction of travel indicated by
creep force. Since it is not inherent in hybrid vehicles, it is NHTSA's
view that there is a safety need to at least design creep force into
the vehicles when in Reverse...
Earlier this year, I test drove the Bolt for a 2nd time and noted that while in D, it functions like a conventional automatic transmission car (has forward creep). In L mode, there was no forward creep but there is no L position for reverse, so you DO get reverse creep in R. R creep can't be turned off. The above .gov document has more about Priuses and Civic Hybrids and their creep.

(BMW i3 has no forward no reverse creep. I posted about what I overheard while in the i3 test drive line at CES before they went on sale in the US: BMW i3 vs Leaf - Page 3 - My Nissan Leaf Forum. Someone was clearly thrown off by lack of creep and startled.)
 
Last edited:

Mark_T

Active Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,292
1,129
UK
Creep on: you let off accelerator to slowly back in the garage. You get a bit distracted and when you again look into the mirror you are just inches away from the wall. You jump the brake. But miss it and hit the accelerator.
You make the news as another unintended acceleration guy.

It is the other way around, more likely to end up with unintended acceleration with creep off as you are feathering the accelerator.

With creep on, in slow parking manoeuvres your foot is already on the brake, worst case you end up with unintended braking force.
 

Helmuth

Member
Jun 17, 2016
246
362
Central Florida
Creep ON for me! I don't like to roll backward unless I have placed a car in reverse. Never liked rolling backwards in my standard vehicles either.

If you push the brake pedal a little harder while stopped (the (H) symbol is displayed on the dash) and release the pedal the car doesn’t move even on a slope!
You can start driving by using the accelerator or disable the hold function (H) by pressing the brake pedal again.

I love it and keep creep mode always OFF!
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,537
6,287
Snohomish, WA
What I find bizarre is you can't set it exactly like you want it.

Like I'd like creep off, but at the same time I'd like it not to roll backwards without bothering to use hill-hold. Ideally it would obey the accelerator like some other EV cars do. I'd also like more adjustability of regen. Basically to the point where I could come to a complete stop exactly where I wanted to just by feathering the accelerator.

I should try to figure out what the rate is of unattended acceleration on EV's like the Bolt where the accelerator can also act as a brake. Although I probably would find anything of value since it's a mode you can turn on, and it's tough to say what percentage of drivers use it.
 

WarpedOne

Supreme Premier
Aug 17, 2006
4,364
6,567
Slovenia, Europe
It is the other way around
So, all those "unintended acceleration people" were driving with creep off?
Or was it the other way around and they were used to creep?

Difference is ICE automatics are not as trigger happy as tesla's are.
Go and use creep but do not come crying here how you took down the garage wall and tesla is to blame.

No, you are.
 

cwerdna

Active Member
Jul 11, 2012
3,560
2,451
SF Bay Area, CA
I don't think creep on or off will solve the issue that Smart pedals won’t put the brakes on driver error asserts is the cause of some unintended accelerations.
Back then, many of us who worked in fields like ergonomics, human performance and psychology suspected that these unintended-acceleration events might have a human component. We noticed that the complaints were far more frequent among older drivers (in a General Motors study, 60-to-70-year-olds had about six times the rate of complaints as 20-to-30-year-olds), drivers who had little experience with the specific car involved (parking-lot attendants, car-wash workers, rental-car patrons) and people of relatively short stature.

Several researchers hypothesized how a driver, intending to apply the brake pedal to keep the car from creeping, would occasionally press the accelerator instead. Then, surprised that the car moved so much, he would try pressing harder. Of course, if his right foot was actually on the accelerator, the throttle would open and the car would move faster. This would then lead the driver to press the “brake” harder still, and to bring about even more acceleration. Eventually, the car would be at full throttle, until it crashed. The driver’s foot would be all the way to the floor, giving him the impression that the brakes had failed.
...
the driver does not really confuse the accelerator and the brake. Rather, the limbs do not do exactly what the brain tells them to. Noisy neuromuscular processes intervene to make the action slightly different from the one intended. The driver intends to press the brake, but once in a while these neuromuscular processes cause the foot to deviate from the intended trajectory — just as a basketball player who makes 90 percent of his free throws sometimes misses the hoop. This effect would be enhanced by the driver being slightly misaligned in the seat when he first gets in the car.

The answer to the second question is that, when a car accelerates unexpectedly, the driver often panics, and just presses the brake harder and harder. Drivers typically do not shut off the ignition, shift to neutral or apply the parking brake.
 

Mark_T

Active Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,292
1,129
UK
Difference is ICE automatics are not as trigger happy as tesla's are.
Go and use creep but do not come crying here how you took down the garage wall and tesla is to blame.

This feels like a somewhat reversed conversation; in creep mode the Tesla is going to behave lust like all the other automatic cars that the general population is used to driving, so no, there isn't really any greater chance of a driver hitting the wrong pedal during those slow manoeuvres as it is all familiar territory, with the foot mainly on the brake pedal.

With creep off, a new way of driving has to be learned and the foot will be mainly on the accelerator pedal if the car is moving at all and that is where there is an increased risk of muscle memory cutting in and pressing the 'go' pedal to stop, or as some report, bumping up against a restriction on the ground a little earlier than expected and inadvertently applying increased throttle...

... but either way, we should all drive with the settings as we prefer them to be, but I'd argue there is a strong case for defaulting to creep as that is what the majority of drivers are already used to...
 

Zythryn

Model Y custom Warming Stripes wrap.
Mar 18, 2009
2,175
1,201
Minnesota
Creep Off.
Any motion is under my control. In addition, I feel I have a finer level of control moving small distances with creep off, rather than with creep on.
I came from 25 years of driving automatics that all had creep. Creep off took a few days to get used to, but once I did it felt much more natural, convenient, and safe.
 

jaguar36

Active Member
Apr 10, 2014
2,069
1,570
NJ
Creep on. Keep in mind that a lot of the older cars don't have hill hold. I find it much safer to know the car is always going to either go forward slowly or not move rather than not move or may roll backwards.
 

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