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Cross Rotating Michelin MXM4 19"

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by ribsandbbqbeef, May 23, 2015.

  1. ribsandbbqbeef

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    Been searching on the forums, but haven't really come across any definitive answer in my search.

    On inspection of my 19" MXM4's I don't see any arrows to indicate the tires are directional, or the words "outside only" to indicate the tires are asymmetrical. If that's the case, I don't see why we can't throw in cross rotation into the mix of our front to back tire rotations to squeeze some more life out of our rubber.

    However, I would like to get some confirmation before doing this, for obvious safety reasons.

    Can anyone site a source indicating whether this is feasible?

    Thanks
     
  2. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    Tire manufacturers have for decades instructed that once a radial tire has been run for a few thousand miles it should not be rotated to the other side of the vehicle.
     
  3. yak-55

    yak-55 Member

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    Well, not the manufacturer of these particular tires. Michelin recommends corner to corner roation for 4 wheel drive vehicles, and the traditional rearward cross for RWD vehicles (with a prominent exception for the case of directional tires). Please see:
    Tire Rotation | How often should I be rotating tires? | Michelin US
     
  4. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    Well, blow me down! Thanks for the link.
     
  5. Tdriver

    Tdriver Member

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    Any kind of rotation is going to introduce two types of wear patterns. Once the second wear pattern starts to show up, so does the noise. You have to decide whether the extra noise is worth it for a little extra mileage.
     
  6. ribsandbbqbeef

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    So is the final verdict that as long as I don't mind the noise, it is safe to throw in cross rotations for our 19" MXM4's?
     
  7. bxr140

    bxr140 Member

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    Save for directional tires, every car and tire manufacturer recommendation I've seen has been to cross rotate.

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    Yup.
     
  8. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Wow thanks for that link. So Michelin recommends cross-rotation for 4WD vehicles.

    My question then is, is there any difference between Tesla Dual Motor drive (front and rear wheels driven independently because there are two motors, not one engine) and "traditional" 4WD vehicles where one engine drives all four wheels?

    Does the Tesla Dual Motor system mean that tires can be cross-rotated and is that in any way better than front-to-back rotation?

    I have not seen any posts on this forum where someone asked Tesla is tire rotation on the D models should be done differently than rotation on the RWD models.

    We need to ask Tesla, keeping in mind that asking random people at Service Centers will likely result in a range of answers.
     
  9. mferris

    mferris Member

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    I haven't received mine yet but can someone confirm that the cyclone wheels cannot be cross rotated even if the tires can?
     
  10. Bill D

    Bill D Member

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    Are you saying that tire noise increases after "any kind of rotation", even only front-back rotation without rotating side-to-side?
     
  11. linkster

    linkster Member

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    Td

    Your strategy differs from my mine in that I have introduced 4 different "patterns" to keep my tires even wearing and as quiet as new.

    mf

    None of Tesla's OEM wheels are side specific.
     
  12. Electricfan

    Electricfan Member

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    That's interesting - do you have a link to a source for this "second wear pattern - adds noise" theory? Not that I doubt you or anything, I just don't believe everything I read anymore.
     
  13. Tdriver

    Tdriver Member

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    Yes, front tires wear completely different than rear tires regardless of whether its AWD or not.......due to directional changes and camber differences.
     
  14. brucet999

    brucet999 Active Member

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    Tesla AWD is very much different than all-wheel-all-the-time ICE versions in that it employs "torque sleep" which varies the amount of driving time that is all-wheel. With one or the other motor in torque sleep mode at cruising speeds, it could behave as a RWD, FWD, or AWD according to circumstances, so it would be difficult to determine which rotation pattern to use. I wonder if Tesla engineers even know on average how much time each motor will be working?
     
  15. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    No they haven't. This is just FUD from the time when the North American tire manufacturers were trying to stem the tide of radial tires.

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    Only the early Roadster wheels had a "turbine direction" where the appearance would be "off" because there were actually two different wheels that had different turbine directions. All Model S wheels are the same.

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    If you do a first "early" rotation, it will set up an even wear pattern because every tire will get a chance on the drive axle. The longer between rotations, the more time the free rolling wheel positions will have to impart a wear pattern, but that first rotation (about 1500 miles) is the most important one.
     
  16. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    So I had a HUGH issue with noise on my stock Goodyears... so much that I've just replaced them with Michelin Primacys because I couldn't stand the noise any longer. Question: What is the best rotating strategy for minimizing noise over the long haul? Front to Rear or X-Pattern?
     
  17. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    This is correct. Much of the "rotation advise" is left over FUD that's been passed down from the early days of radial tires. The North American tire manufacturers* were just as dead set against radial tires as the car manufacturers are against BEVs. (Think hybrid cars = bias-belted tires.)
    A number of FUD statements were made at the time, similar to the number of FUD statements about BEV cars today. Note that there is only one North American tire manufacturer that survived from those days to the present.

    Note that Michelin's website is a bit mealy mouthed in that they indicate four types of rotation, but don't actually come out and say "only" use these patterns--just that they are common. Basically they are recommending a consistent method for each rotation.

    * I don't know about the European tire manufacturers because radial tires were first marketed in Europe in 1946, so by the time radial tires started being marketed in North America they were already standard in Europe.

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    1. Do a first early rotation at 1500 miles (at least before 2000 miles.)

    2. Insure there is at least the amount of pressure in the tires that is shown on the vehicle placard. Low pressure, even for a short time, will start a wear pattern that can create noise.

    3. Unless you have directional tires, there is no reason to favour one rotation method over the other. It's common to have a front to rear rotation recommendation, but there is no technical reason to do so. I've found noise more often depends on the tire type rather than the rotation pattern. Some tires have much better noise attenuation than others. I've never tested various rotation patterns to see if one produces more noise than another. (This is hard for an individual to do because you need at least two identical cars.)

    4. When Artsci's DIY tire foam liner becomes available, that will help far more than any rotation pattern. The reason is that the radial cords act like violin strings and the chamber of the tire acts like the sound box. The foam liner will deaden the sound amplification.
     
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  18. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    This thread has been quite interesting. All my life (I am in the US) I had heard that radial tires could only be rotated front to back. The link to Michelin's site obviously shows that is not true. I never thought about the idea that such advice was a marketing tactic by the established bias ply tire manufacturers (who are now history).
    And perhaps in the early days of radials that was required but over time radial tire design improved so that they could be cross rotated as well?
    I can understand why tire shops normally do front to back rotation: it's simpler.
    So now the question is; are there any advantages to alternating cross rotation with front to back rotation?
     
  19. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    Well, the main disadvantage would be forgetting which method you used the previous time. Until some studies are done to show that one method attenuates noise better than the other, just use whichever method you are more comfortable with.

    For noise, I'd put more money on Artsci's DIY noise deadening foam than on a tire rotation method (with the exception of that first early rotation).

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    I can assure you that this is not true. I've been fighting that FUD since those times. What is true is that if you keep a car tire on the same position for 80K miles, it's close to the end of it's casing life and whatever change in position is made might cause it to have problems. I don't believe we have to worry much about that in a Model S.
     
  20. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Thanks @jerry33. I've certainly come to respect your knowledge and advice when it comes to all things tires and wheels!

    Am I to assume that once you've chosen a rotation methodology, you should stick to it for the life of the tires? I think that is what I'm seeing implied here.
     

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