TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

Curious about electrician quotes

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by Linux64, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. Linux64

    Linux64 Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Utah
    #1 Linux64, Jun 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
    Just curious what people are getting quoted/billed to run power to their garage?

    I asked for a quote to run future proof service to my garage with the ability to handle two Tesla Model S High Power Wall Chargers (each with a backup NEMA 14-50 next it).

    I got a quote for the following work:


    • Home has 400 amp service via 700 kcmil wire, T-off service panel and add small panel next to it with 200 amp breaker on outside of house
    • Run 200 amp service via 4/0 aluminum wire approx 110' through the attic (with small run up size of house to attic)
    • Add 200 amp panel in closet above garage (adjacent to attic space above garage with mega clearance to do work)
    • Qty 2 100 amp breakers for HPWC
    • Qty 2 50 amp breakers for NEMA 14-50
    • Run one 100 amp and one 50 amp lines approx 25' to the two designated spots in the garage
    • Install Qty 1 HPWC, run the other 100 amp line into a box on the wall for future HPWC or equiv
    • Add whole home surge protector to 400 amp panel service panel
    • Add surge protector to new 200 amp garage panel

    Quote was not to exceed $6500.

    PS - I should have my P85+ in a couple weeks.

    Edit: To clarify, my home already has 400 amp service.
     
  2. derekt75

    derekt75 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2012
    Messages:
    592
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    I don't really understand why you're installing 4 outlets for one car.
    If you need a new subpanel, and want to futureproof the subpanel, okay, I guess I understand that. but even running wires from the subpanel into the garage costs a noticeable amount compared to the cost of an electrician making a 2nd house call in a couple years.
    Are you sure that your 2nd EV is going to want that HPWC near the back left of the car? What if you want some different supply equipment and you want it at the front of your car?

    When I got my 14-50 outlet installed, I asked them to quote the cost of doing a 2nd outlet for a 2nd car. The price was exactly double. no discount. I figured, okay then, I'll just do the 2nd outlet when I get the 2nd EV.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Congrats on the P85+ btw [I'm jealous].
     
  3. Linux64

    Linux64 Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Utah
    That's a good point about the second location in the garage. I'll still run 200 amps to a new subpanel, but I should probably run the wires from there to the second location later (when I get a second EV).
     
  4. NotMandatory

    NotMandatory Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO (USA)
    #4 NotMandatory, Jun 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2013
    We got quotes from two competing electrical service contractors.

    Assumptions:
    1. We already had 200A service to the house, and our rudimentary capacity assessment showed that we had spare capacity/overhead for ONE additional 50A circuit.
    2. However, if we added TWO additional 50A circuits, we would need to upgrade to 400A service to the house, which would require significant extra cost ($2k+), unless we wanted to juggle active current draws among our major appliances to prevent exceeding our 200A capacity (not desirable).
    3. Our basement panel and sub-panel were only 40 or so feet from the desired 14-50 receptacle location in the garage, so we only needed an approximately 50' run of #6 cable, and there was a no-longer-used conduit that could also be utilized.
    4. During the estimates, both companies noted that our existing 100A sub-panel, originally installed for a pool that was later filled in prior to our purchase of the house, was an outdated Sylvania Zinsco model with an aluminum bus, and it was recommended that we upgrade it.

    Company 1:
    • To install 1 new 50A circuit with 1 NEMA 14-50 receptacle: $485
    • To install an optional 2nd NEMA 14-50 receptacle on other side of garage: $555
    • To install both 14-50 receptacles: $885 (15% discount)
    • To install a new 100A sub-panel: $345
    • To install both 14-50 receptacles AND a new 100A sub-panel: $1,090 (11.4% discount)
    • Stated that our 200A service could "easily" support 2 additional 50A circuits, even with everything running simultaneously, which was counter to our assessment

    Company 2:
    • To install 1 new 50A circuit with 1 NEMA 14-50 receptacle: $590
    • To install an optional 2nd NEMA 14-50 receptacle on other side of garage: $585
    • To install a new 100A sub-panel: $420
    • To install 1 new 50A circuit with 1 NEMA 14-50 receptacle AND a new 100A sub-panel: $1,010
    • To install both 14-50 receptacles AND a new 100A sub-panel: $1,360 (15% discount)
    • Stated that our 200A service would NOT support 2 additional 50A circuits if everything tried to run simultaneously, which matched our assessment

    As a result of the last bullet point from both estimates, we had a higher level of confidence with Company #2.

    Company #2's initial estimates were 50% higher than Company #1, so we negotiated their original estimate down to the above prices, which was "only" 18% more than Company #1...but we trusted their assessment more and they had better references, so we felt the 18% premium was justified and went with Company #2.

    tldr: It cost us $590 to add the 50A circuit with a 14-50 receptacle (and we opted to upgrade our outdated sub-panel at the same time).
     
  5. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Seattle
    Linux64. What is your current service? If it can handle one HPWC, maybe you should defer upgrading the service until you have made the decision to get the second EV. You could run 4/0 from the main panel to the sub panel so it would be ready later and install large enough subpanels to accommodate the additional breakers. I suspect the majority of your cost is upgrading to 400 Amp service.

    I think you might also consider whether you need an HPWC at all, let alone 2. Overnight charging will be fine with a 50 Amp NEMA plug (a bit over 8 hrs to put 260 miles worth of charge on). I've heard an awful lot of people saying they really didn't need the HPWC. The different is going to be charging at 31 MpH vs 50. I believe that 62 MpH is illusory as the best I've heard HPWCs delivering is 80Amp.
     
  6. NotMandatory

    NotMandatory Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO (USA)
    I would think 62 miles per hour of charge should not be "illusory" if you can charge at the full 80A and you don't have a significant voltage drop due to the run from the panel to the HPWC.



    14-50
    HPWC

    "Max" Voltage 240 240

    "Max" Amperage 50 100

    TRUE Voltage (V) 240 240

    TRUE Amperage (A) 40 80

    WATTS (W = V * A) 9,600 19,200
    Driving Profile: 280 Wh/m Charge Rate [W/(Wh/m)] 34.3
    68.6
    Driving Profile: 290 Wh/m Charge Rate [W/(Wh/m)] 33.1
    66.2
    Driving Profile: 300 Wh/m Charge Rate [W/(Wh/m)] 32.0
    64.0
    Driving Profile: 310 Wh/m Charge Rate [W/(Wh/m)] 31.0
    61.9
    Driving Profile: 320 Wh/m Charge Rate [W/(Wh/m)] 30.0
    60.0
    The first column of numbers represents our 14-50. We get a full 240V for our short 50' run to the garage along with the full 40A, so we routinely get a 33mph charge. I don't see why someone with a 100A HPWC circuit with full voltage and 80A continuous wouldn't be able to charge at 60-69 mph depending upon their driving profile.
     
  7. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Seattle
    #7 PhilBa, Jun 17, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
    It's important not to lose sight of my main point - an HPWC may not be required. Dual HPWCs may well be massive overkill. How many miles in a day do you plan on going? I would try to avoid a service upgrade which is pretty expensive.
     
  8. Mayhemm

    Mayhemm Model S P85+ "Lola"

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,939
    Location:
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like everyone here is wanting to route power through their existing service to their garage. Has anyone considered running a second dedicated service/meter just for the garage?

    I'm considering going this route since the layout in my house is a bit of a rat's nest (main panel + 3 sub-panels, wires going everywhere). It just seems much simpler to have the utility run a dedicated service out to my garage. The garage is on the back of my lot, about 50 feet from the street. What factors besides distance would determine if this is possible?
     
  9. arg

    arg Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2012
    Messages:
    741
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Does your '33mph' charge on the actual car align with the numbers in the table?

    Theory says that you should be knocking at least 8% off those numbers to account for charger efficiency (Tesla specify peak efficiency as 92%). It's possible the displays do the same arithmetic as your table, in which case charging for an hour at '33mph' would result in less than 33 miles added to the range.

    Not a big deal (and not really relevant to the HPWC or not argument), but it would be interesting to know.
     
  10. PhilBa

    PhilBa Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,355
    Location:
    Seattle
    Sounds like my house! For me it was just about cost. I would price it out both ways or , at the least, have a discussion with an electrician. In my case, he was able to move some things around and use my existing panel. I had originally thought I needed to increase my service but it turned out not to be necessary. Converting an electric HW heater to gas helped a lot. Saved at least $5K and 3+ months. Of course, Seattle City Light (govt owned power company) is probably a worst case scenario... In the future, I may have to increase service for other reasons but I have my garage wired for an EV now.
     
  11. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2012
    Messages:
    7,019
    It depends on your power company. My power company charges $34/month for an additional meter / service, while service upgrades are free. They provide all parts & labor to place new underground cable and conduit to the meter pan, and new transformer. They supply the meter pan but your electrician must install it. Since many/most portions of the US permit multiple service panels, you keep the rest of your existing equipment and install a second 200A service panel.

    In other areas, the tariffs are structured such that second meters are nearly free, and so doing what you suggest is a good idea.
     
  12. HP832

    HP832 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2013
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Houston
    That seems a little bit high. I just got 2 NEMA 14-50, 50A outlets installed on my garage last week for $600 total, that's $300 each (in Houston, TX). My electrician used the existing panel and run the wires up to the attic and down.
     
  13. Linux64

    Linux64 Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Utah
    #13 Linux64, Jun 18, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
    Wow lucky. When I was building my house about 4 years ago in N. Utah, in the final stretch when we went to get permanent 400amp power, Rocky Mountain Power insisted I pay for a new transformer install, horizontal boring under the street, a freestanding meter pedestal at the curb which then meant that I was responsible for the wire from the curb to the home and the county and the electric code called for 700 kcmil wire from that run. All told, it cost $10,000 to get the power hookup. Maybe I should have dumped that into a PV system instead which probably would have paid a 20-33% of what I needed to go totally off the electric grid.
     
  14. Linux64

    Linux64 Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Utah
    It seemed high to me too, hence I was curious what other people were paying (recognizing that each install has its own characteristics).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Sorry my original post wasn't totally clear. I actually already have 400 amp service. So the quoted cost is to install a new 200 amp sub panel near my garage (110' from my service panel) and do the runs to my garage. The quoted price I got seemed high to me, so I was curious to get other data points.

    I'm not actually installing a second HPWC, just running the wire to make it very easy to install one in the future (for example, when/if I get a Model X). But on further consideration, based on part from feedback here, I'm not going to guess now where the second location my garage should be.

    I still plan getting the new 200 amp subpanel installed that's connected directly off my service panel, but I'll only a 100 amp run for a HPWC as well as a 50 amp run for a backup NEMA 14-50 outlet.

    Going the HPWC route for me is important since I live in rural N. Utah mountains and there is virtually no EV infrastructure and I have an active busy life (with 5 kids). I want it to charge as fast as possible and whenever I leave the garage I want the most (standard) range I can get as possible.
     
  15. Linux64

    Linux64 Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Location:
    Utah
    Here is this visible part of what I got installed.

    Tesla-HPWC-installed.jpg

    My home already had 400 amp service and got a new 200 amp garage sub-panel installed that comes directly off of the 400 amp service panel.

    i have the NEMA 14-50 outlet on a 50 amp breaker and the HPWC on a 100 amp breaker.
     
  16. Mayhemm

    Mayhemm Model S P85+ "Lola"

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,939
    Location:
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    #16 Mayhemm, Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
    Well, I got a shock today (no pun intended). I've been in touch with my power company regarding the addition of a separate service for my garage, figuring it would be simpler and cheaper than upgrading the service in the house. Boy, was I wrong!

    The quote to install the 200-amp service for my garage was almost $5500! :scared: And that includes nothing but the meter, running the cable from the power pole, and a post at the corner of my lot so the line can change direction! The mast for the meter, the panel and all the work that needs to be done by an electrician is EXTRA! I certainly did not plan on spending $10K just to prep my garage for EV charging. I thought maybe $2000, given there is no complicated work involved.

    Needless to say, tomorrow I'm getting a second opinion as well as a quote on upgrading the house to 400-amp. Not happy. :cursing:

    UPDATE 7/30/2013: Spoke to the local electrician today and apparently the reason for the outrageous quote from the power company is due to them needing to install a pole at the edge of my property (in order to get around the house and to my garage). I thought this was just a small pole like you would use to hang a clothes line, but I guess it is a full-size utility pole. As such, they have to bring out an entire crew with heavy equipment to install it. Seems like overkill to me, but what do I know? According to the electrician, upgrading the house service would be a much cheaper option (even though I have to purchase all new breakers for the new panel because the ones I have aren't compatible). Hopefully, I'll have an actual quote by the end of the week and can get to work (all the other garage prep work is waiting on the new electrical).
     
  17. irishstoutaz

    irishstoutaz Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    302
    Location:
    Cave Creek, AZ
    We just had a NEMA 14-50 installed (in an outdoor cover) right by the main breaker for $185. Got to test it out along with using our UMC for the first time on Fri and got 29 mph. Now we can drive the car to our cabin without any range anxiety!
     

Share This Page