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Current rates of atmospheric CO2 increase are not “natural”

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by Vostok, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. Candleflame

    Candleflame Member

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    it is not explainable how the government cannot do some state organized solar panels for australia. if theres one thing there is too much of here it is sunshine. could it have something to do with australias wealth being based around coal and ore? probably.
     
  2. Vostok

    Vostok Member

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    Apologies for the tone of my posts yesterday. I am (obviously) rather passionate about this issue and sometimes I get a bit too worked up.
     
  3. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Fair Dinkum Tesla

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    Fine with me @Vostok, don't ever apologise for respecting the planet.
     
  4. Dborn

    Dborn Confirmed

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    #44 Dborn, Mar 14, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
    I quite like roo but I also like my beef and lamb.. I also have a 6kw solar system and Tesla battery plus led lighting throughout. I have solar pool heating. My main reasons are to reduce my power costs and local pollution (smog). There are other reasons I chose an electric car, but since they are heavily political, I will refrain from mentioning. I am under no illusion that any of this will make a jot of difference to the climate. It might make a small difference to local smog.
    Interesting that you did not respond to the distributed nuclear option. The cleanest form of reliable power there is with negligible risk.
    Also, why all the emphasis on solar and wind? Effective wave and current generation is far more reliable (always have tides and currents). Just needs more research. Go down deep enough and geothermal is also more reliable. 5 days of no sun and no wind and batteries will make no difference to reliability. For me to get off the grid I would need at least 15kw of panels (not enough roof for anything more than I have) and probably a total of 4 batteries!! Even then, I would maintain an emergency grid connection option!!
    Towards a Decentralized Nuclear Future
     
  5. garyjac

    garyjac Member

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    The odd thing is that the atmosphere can tolerate a certain amount of pollution, we've just gone way, way too far past that point. Once (in 100 years or so) when the pollution is down, etc., a small amount of nuclear and even coal might be tolerable, but not right now!
     
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  6. Mark E

    Mark E Member

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    Agree re Wave and geothermal, but solar and wind are already established. Nuclear is only 'clean' if you really distort the figures and overall experience globally is that it is horrendously expensive, and makes non-proliferation management extremely difficult. The new generation of more efficient reactors are an improvement on the waste issue but do represent other problems. Offshore wind using the current floating platform tech (developed ironically for oil and gas) is going to make wind even cheaper and more reliable. Storage prices are set on a dramatically reducing curve and it will very soon be much cheaper to have batteries than to buy power.
     
  7. aegidius

    aegidius Member

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    Even if all risks can be adequately mitigated (another story) renewables win hands down over nuclear, for upfront cost and scalability. Same for new coal power stations. That's why few banks will touch them now. Wave and tidal power do seem attractive on paper, but nobody has been able to make them work reliably afaik. Lots of big heavy moving parts, a corrosive and chemically reactive environment, difficult and dangerous to access and repair.
     
  8. ALLZAP

    ALLZAP Member

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    Its pretty obvious why banks won't touch coal plants, the government has no problem bankrupting people....as long as it makes them feeeeeeeel good. Reality is still reality, you still need base load units to support green energy when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing.....its not a debatable point. Physics must be honored or the grid fails. In California, they have rolling blackouts every summer..... if you are okay with that, then have at it....but the grid will collapse and will not return before chaos ensues. FYI, I manage the grid for a living.....
     
  9. aegidius

    aegidius Member

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    I didn't mention the storage aspect of renewables, because they need to be considered as a whole system. Pumped hydro and batteries are proven just like the generation technology is. And solar thermal has an inherent storage built into it. All of these problems are well understood and have solutions. The outstanding problems are political, not technical or even economic.
     
  10. ALLZAP

    ALLZAP Member

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    I would have to disagree with you....most of the 'solutions' are economic. Battery storage for just one wind turbine would be the size of a Semi...... ....A point needs to be made that most people do not know. Wind energy is the most expensive energy on the grid....solar is higher, but its penetration is minimal. If people had to pay the actual cost of wind power. There wouldn't be hardly any build. The government is hiding the true cost, in our ever expanding deficit and debt levels of this government. You can't create more pump storage is the radial environmentalist block any construction, as it might endanger that red, spotted, blue butted ant,,,or whatever the flavor of the day is...... The facts are the facts, with people like it or not.
     
  11. Blue heaven

    Blue heaven Fair Dinkum Tesla

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    I'll have to disagree with you Allzap, each wind turbine does NOT need a battery the size of a semi, getting a grid to as close to 100% renewable as possible in Australia does not require batteries on a mass scale, it requires a correctly designed layout with the right mix of solar, wind, hydro and other sources spread across a large geographical area.
    Australia is not held back from reaching a high level of renewables by technolodgy, it's held back by political stubborness fueled by this countries rich and powerful coal and gas industries. Luckily times are a changing (thanks Bob) and here's an example, Alinta energy has access to some of the cheapest gas available yet is building wind farms on the West Coast that are set to deliver electricty to big clients for a 20% lower cost than gas, let me remind you there is no shortage of cheap gas in Western Australia.
    You may run an electricity grid in the Midwest of the USA but until you study Australia's wind, solar and hydro resources, it's power grid construction layout and its recent political history your just spreading FUD
     
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  12. ALLZAP

    ALLZAP Member

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    You did touch on something that needs to be stated. You can't fabricate wind, solar or hydro, just because you want it. So if a country is blessed with enough natural resources to support the grid 24/7, that is not from the making of man. Norway touts how they are such good stewards by have so much green energy....well they didn't create the water resources that were there, not to mention their whole economy is based on oil......that being said, your comment about batteries size is incorrect. Would a company spend millions or billions of dollars on a gas combined cycle plant, only to be shutdown by government regulations coming from a radical environmentalist? The answer is no, so brute force by a government on energy independence is always a terrible plan.... but the plan fascist supports enjoy..... I'm all for the cleanest green energy we can get. But it takes time to put it all together. I'm smart enough to know that the world is not coming to an end if we burn fossil fuel for another 25 years..... I do wish you well and much success and enjoyment of your Tesla!! :)
     
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  13. EcoCloudIT

    EcoCloudIT Member

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    @ALLZAP where are your qualifications for spreading such outlandish bull crap FUD? Homer at nuclear power planet type to role you have? Hehehehe, very qualified indeed.

    I have visited many a house in Australia that is off grid, very standard homes with just solar and batteries (most with 2-3 days of storage)....and dude seriously...the old argument of when the sun isn’t shinning and the wind isn’t blowing...give me a break, really shows your lack of understanding.

    Battery storage is dropping and dropping fast, within 5-10 years here in Australia if you have the ability to install solar then you’d be a mug to not have battery/solar as it will be far cheaper than the grid.

    Keep pushing those buttons @ALLZAP, just make sure it’s not the melt down one, ok?

    @aegidius and @Blue heaven we're wasting our time with this chap...usual FUD spreader....
     
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  14. paulp

    paulp Active Member

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    If you think its ok to burn fossil fuels for another 25 years, than your opinion of your own intelligence is very misled.
     
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  15. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    Absolutely.
    Tax the problem, let the market find the solutions.
    Economics 101. Incentivise desired outcome.
     
  16. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    This speech for the abolition of slavery by William Pitt the Younger in 1792 makes the exact argument:

    "I tremble at the thought of Gentlemens indulging themselves in this argument ... we are second to none of you in our zeal for the good of Africa, but the French will not abolish, the Dutch will not abolish. We wait therofore on prudential principles till they join us, or set us an example"
    "How, Sir! Is this enormous evil ever to be eradicated, if every nation is thus prudentially to wait till the concurrence of all the world shall have obtained?"


    I "tremble" when I hear people say there's no point in Australia reducing emissions when other nations do not.
    We have a duty to do the "right" thing, and we must not run the world into disaster for the sake of politics.
     
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  17. paulp

    paulp Active Member

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    I tremble even more when people twist and fabricate my words to suit their own agenda. The funny thing is this one liner was a response to a quote that I supposedly made, but in fact never did, and I absolutely have never subscribed to the notion that we are too small to have an impact. The recent bans on 737 max 8’s is a classic example. It was all too hard and expensive to stop them, just a 3rd world pilot / maintenance problem, but then Australia (and other small intelligent countries) banned the plane from its airspace, and the world noticed, and quickly followed. Even USA followed eventually.
    There are multiple methods for australia to lead from the front on climate change, but this thread has shown that one method is more intent on damning the other method rather than joining forces for a solution. This just plays into the hands of those that think life can go on as normal. It can’t.
     
  18. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    We agree with eachother.
    I was agreeing with @Vostok.
    I don't know what one-liner you're referring to.
     
  19. paulp

    paulp Active Member

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    Vostok’ claim that I said or implied “if we dont do it someone else will” was the reference.
    But there is the problem. Vostok is passionate about the environment, so am I. So are you and other than one or two on here so is everyone else judging by the comments, and yet we seem to attack each other to justify who’s political thinking is more correct, which means nothing happens because it all gets too hard. The defenses go up. And to bring it back to Tesla, electric cars were never desirable, and it was tesla and Musk who determined that electric cars can be desirable if the extreme quirky features were removed, if they were made more mainstream, and by making them more mainstream just maybe we can influence the world into emmisions free motoring.
    So a huge lesson from tesla that has convincingly worked. Forget the extremities, find the mainstream. Results will then flow. If a little fledging tesla can succeed, surely Australia can?
     
  20. Mark E

    Mark E Member

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    Indeed. The irony of this is that Australia may succeed despite the attempts from our Federal governments rather than because of them. Households are installing solar systems and we are a leading market in battery adoption - last year we had the highest penetration of rooftop PV in the developed world, and our high power prices are encouraging people to adopt battery storage as well.

    With some of the initiatives like virtual power plants tapping into dispersed residential batteries with solar also gaining traction it's encouraging to see where we are moving, and the pressure that it is putting on our politicians - particularly with elections this year.
     
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