Current transformers monitoring individual circuits. Interface into Tesla 2 app. What are the options?

[Jay Gatsby]

Done a google search and a bit staggered that I can't seem to find a power monitoring platform that can broadcast individual circuit power use and loads into the Tesla app?

Is this correct?

That thru all the talk of energy independence, saving on power bills using the powerwall, etc etc, there is no simply power monitoring tool, current transformers of individual loads into the Tesla app?

Is this right?

Surely not!

Are there any platforms that interface with the Tesla gateway in this way?

Thanks!

 

[jjrandorin]

No. You will not be monitoring individual circuits in the tesla app, full stop. There is no option to do that, nor have we heard of anything on the horizon to do that.

There are a few other devices that do that (monitor individual circuits) but none that put data into the tesla app.

 

[Vines]

Done a google search and a bit staggered that I can't seem to find a power monitoring platform that can broadcast individual circuit power use and loads into the Tesla app?

Is this correct?

That thru all the talk of energy independence, saving on power bills using the powerwall, etc etc, there is no simply power monitoring tool, current transformers of individual loads into the Tesla app?

Is this right?

Surely not!

Are there any platforms that interface with the Tesla gateway in this way?

Thanks!

98% of the systems we install use just 1 or 2 sets of CT's so the granularity would be very limited, even if offered. Most people who want this granularity already purchased a product that does some of what you want.

If you want this level of granularity I personally use eGauge, but this is an installer-grade product with a matching price. Emporia Vue is one option in this space which isn't terribly expensive and will give you what you want. Sense is another option but has significant limitations.

 

[Tronguy]

For what it's worth: In New Jersey, we got these things called RECs, Renewable Energy Credits. If one has green energy (e.g., solar panels, wind, a small hydroelectric dam?) on one's property, for each MW-hr of energy so generated, one gets one of these credits. They're rigged up by the various states in the region as a subsidy for putting in solar or whatever. They can be sold for money.

In my case, there's solar panels on the roof. When those panels and the inverters first went in one would read the kW-hr's generated by the inverters once a month (handily, displayed on the inverters front panels), subtract the reading from the previous month, then enter it all into the PJM-GATS system, who administered all this.

Fine, wonderful. Then it came to the notice of the Public Utilities Commission that those inverter displays, far and wide, weren't particularly accurate; +-10%, say. Utility grade meters are accurate to within 1% or less and have design data, testing, and stamps to prove it. Since money was involved, the PUC then mandated that everybody with solar had to switch to utility grade meters within a certain time limit, or No RECs for You.

So, went looking. Luckily, New York State keeps a list of All The Meters That They Accept. And I spent 'way too much time working my way through that list to find a meter that handled 240 VAC off the panels, didn't cost too much, could be installed in the garage next to the solar breaker panel, and was accurate enough to keep the PUC at bay. Installed it myself: A matter of buying some conduit, screwing the metal box it came in to the plywood everything else was mounted upon, and putting the CT transformers on the two "Hot" leads coming from the solar inverters.

For those who don't know: The CT transformers are little toroidal transformers with two wires each. They're designed to put out a small voltage proportional to the current in the wire they surround. In addition to the four wires from the transformers (one transformer on each leg), voltage from the two hots also goes into the meter and powers it. Interesting math then takes place in the meter, where, more or less, the currents are multiplied by the voltage to get the power, then the power integrated over time to get the energy.

These things cost lots of different types of money and come with lots of different types of features. Was looking for cheap, and got it (Think it was a couple hundred bucks, CT transformers and all). Even so, the box came with an RS-422 interface (kind of a big brother to RS-232) so one could read various values and send them somewhere. Every so often I debate about whether to build a little Arduino setup so I can put it up on Wi-Fi, but it's not worth the trouble.

Obviously, getting one of these things, complete with wi-fi, isn't that big a deal: Stuff like this is sold on Amazon all the time. The real problem is getting a meter that's bog-standard utility-grade accurate, and not some knock-off from who-knows-where. I just checked Amazon: No problem, cell phone apps R us over there. But then.. you have to ask the question: "Is this app going to be here in ten years?" And, regarding the actual power monitoring equipment: "Does this thing pass UL/CSA safety requirements?" Just because some, well, Chinese $RANDOM manufacturer says it is, doesn't mean that it really is.

 

[MX100DM3P2017]

Done a google search and a bit staggered that I can't seem to find a power monitoring platform that can broadcast individual circuit power use and loads into the Tesla app?

Is this correct?

That thru all the talk of energy independence, saving on power bills using the powerwall, etc etc, there is no simply power monitoring tool, current transformers of individual loads into the Tesla app?

Is this right?

Surely not!

Are there any platforms that interface with the Tesla gateway in this way?

Thanks!

As others have stated, I know of no solution that works with the Tesla app. However, if you wish to monitor and control usage down to the circuit level an intelligent home electrical box upgrade such as Span Smart Panel may be worth looking at. The Span app while separate from Tesla app, looks and feels very similar and there are many real world videos on YouTube covering Span and confirming how well they work with Tesla Powerwalls. You can search YouTube or go to Span at SPAN® Home | Electrify your life. I agree, it would be nice if Tesla came out with their own intelligent electric panel.

 

[Jay Gatsby]

Thanks so much everyone for the replies!

Yep that is to sort of thing - Span... (unfortunately I can't get it here)..

But don;t you think it's amazing that Tesla hasn't done it?

I mean how easy would it be? ...monitor and control individual circuits right within the Tesla gateway app?

The benefits and energy savings, not to mention the future AI - I mean it would be enormous ...

Frankly (from such a far reaching, robotised, AI and far thinking organisation like Tesla) I'm staggered Tesla hasn't done it already..

Why is that?

Curious why you all think it hasn't happened already..

Cheers

 

[MX100DM3P2017]

Just guessing but getting into providing any type of home panel to provide circuit level detail would result in additional complexity, variables, and customer service issues that Tesla does not want to take on. In our area, companies like Sunrun, NRG etc. offer solar, Tesla Powerwall, SPAN, as well as other 3rd party solutions in one package. There are additional advancements being made with circuit breakers that offer the intelligence or sensing capabilities without replacing the home panel. Maybe we will see a standard communications that would allow these new devices to communicate with the Tesla gateway in the future. If you do a Google Search for "smart circuit breaker" you will get many options. We are just now getting into intelligent home power management so I would expect many new products in the coming years. I have just plain old solar panels with no battery backup and no intelligence. 10-years ago these were not practical options and Tesla solar and Powerwalls did not exist. I'm just now researching options for a project to update my system in 2-3 years. I'm finding out that 70% of solar owners go through this type of system refresh around 10th year so it seems I'm in good company. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[jjrandorin]

But don;t you think it's amazing that Tesla hasn't done it?

I mean how easy would it be? ...monitor and control individual circuits right within the Tesla gateway app?

TL ; DR -- There is no benefit at all to tesla the company in doing this, only extra costs supporting stuff fielding questions about individual loads from customers.

============================================


No im not surprised, because its not that easy. Many people dont have room in their panels for "more stuff", it requires putting CTs on every wire, an additional hardware device (connected to power), and would insert tesla into the middle of discussions they dont shouldnt (and probably dont) want to be in, like "why is my range taking so much power?"


Perhaps this is because I am in a support organization in my day job, and have spent my entire working carreer, from my first job in a fast food restaurant to where I am now in my mid 50s, working in "some" form of customer support I have a fairly specific view to this, but....


Whenever a company representative, or a company "assists" with something, they effectively own it in the customers eyes, regardless of whether that was done "as a courtesy", or whether they were told " this is best effort but let me try....."

I will give you a specific example to better explain what I mean.

When I was much younger, and early in my IT career my mom used to tell her friends "Oh my son knows about computers, he can help you with XXXXX" (keep in mind im 55 years old now, and I was like 20-22 for this story, to place where computers were then). So,I would perform some action for them, and then "forever more" they would call me if "something" (anything) didnt work with the computer.

If I wasnt interested in fixing it, sometimes they would get a bit belligerent or say something like "well it didnt do this until you XXXXXX" (I guarantee you anyone and everyone who has ever performed any support function for anyone has heard "it didnt do this until you XXXXX" from someone, whether that XXXXXX is relevant to what is being asked or not.

The point is, if Tesla facilitated this, they would have to own such a solution. They would have to also own why, for some people, "Im sorry, you cant get the snazzy individual circuit level monitoring that is shown as available, you have no room in your panel" would not be an acceptable response. See the various people who were expecting to get regular consumption data at the house level, and didnt because "no room in panel / no neurio devices" and were "upset" about it to see that would be multiplied in this situation.


With a "bunch of data", for many people, comes not only extra scrutiny, but a bunch of extra questions. See all the people who install Teslafi. / Stats / Teslamate or some other third party application for "monitoring" their tesla vehicle, and they freak the $%Q$%$% out about why their wh/mi is "higher than average", why the app shows their battery degradation is "in the 70% percentile, but tesla wont listen!!!!!" etc.

Tesla would be bombarded with questions about circuit power usage, why the neighbors house uses less power for their lights "but its the same floorplan!" or other such questions.

What do they get in exchange for doing that? There is no benefit on the company side for tesla to provide this information / perform these hookups. Extra support / support costs, but no benefit whatsoever to tesla the company from people having this extra data.

There is benefit to some people for having it, but none for Tesla. Much better to skip that support nightmare, expense, customer service issue etc and leave that to a customer to pick the product, and get it installed, and understand that data themselves, without a recommendation from Tesla on specific product.

 

[Tronguy]

TL ; DR -- There is no benefit at all to tesla the company in doing this, only extra costs supporting stuff fielding questions about individual loads from customers.

============================================


No im not surprised, because its not that easy. Many people dont have room in their panels for "more stuff", it requires putting CTs on every wire, an additional hardware device (connected to power), and would insert tesla into the middle of discussions they dont shouldnt (and probably dont) want to be in, like "why is my range taking so much power?"


Perhaps this is because I am in a support organization in my day job, and have spent my entire working carreer, from my first job in a fast food restaurant to where I am now in my mid 50s, working in "some" form of customer support I have a fairly specific view to this, but....


Whenever a company representative, or a company "assists" with something, they effectively own it in the customers eyes, regardless of whether that was done "as a courtesy", or whether they were told " this is best effort but let me try....."

I will give you a specific example to better explain what I mean.

When I was much younger, and early in my IT career my mom used to tell her friends "Oh my son knows about computers, he can help you with XXXXX" (keep in mind im 55 years old now, and I was like 20-22 for this story, to place where computers were then). So,I would perform some action for them, and then "forever more" they would call me if "something" (anything) didnt work with the computer.

If I wasnt interested in fixing it, sometimes they would get a bit belligerent or say something like "well it didnt do this until you XXXXXX" (I guarantee you anyone and everyone who has ever performed any support function for anyone has heard "it didnt do this until you XXXXX" from someone, whether that XXXXXX is relevant to what is being asked or not.

The point is, if Tesla facilitated this, they would have to own such a solution. They would have to also own why, for some people, "Im sorry, you cant get the snazzy individual circuit level monitoring that is shown as available, you have no room in your panel" would not be an acceptable response. See the various people who were expecting to get regular consumption data at the house level, and didnt because "no room in panel / no neurio devices" and were "upset" about it to see that would be multiplied in this situation.


With a "bunch of data", for many people, comes not only extra scrutiny, but a bunch of extra questions. See all the people who install Teslafi. / Stats / Teslamate or some other third party application for "monitoring" their tesla vehicle, and they freak the $%Q$%$% out about why their wh/mi is "higher than average", why the app shows their battery degradation is "in the 70% percentile, but tesla wont listen!!!!!" etc.

Tesla would be bombarded with questions about circuit power usage, why the neighbors house uses less power for their lights "but its the same floorplan!" or other such questions.

What do they get in exchange for doing that? There is no benefit on the company side for tesla to provide this information / perform these hookups. Extra support / support costs, but no benefit whatsoever to tesla the company from people having this extra data.

There is benefit to some people for having it, but none for Tesla. Much better to skip that support nightmare, expense, customer service issue etc and leave that to a customer to pick the product, and get it installed, and understand that data themselves, without a recommendation from Tesla on specific product.

No argument with anything you’re saying, believe me.

But, under the, “Nice to have” category, there’s the vague idea that data be generated by whatever app has access to the raw information in some kind of base format so that other applications can be plomped together to use that data.

For solar panel systems, as a random example, CSV files could be generated with time stamps and overall energy since the beginning of time. Some random energy monitors could do the same; then, using spreadsheets to combine this all in some useful-to-the-user format could be made to work. And automated with macros or something.

The point is that the data should be provided at such a low level that it’s a zero-brain function for the collector of such data to provide it. Even across multiple software releases and time, which means that applications riding on top of that data don’t break.

 

[jjrandorin]

No argument with anything you’re saying, believe me.

But, under the, “Nice to have” category, there’s the vague idea that data be generated by whatever app has access to the raw information in some kind of base format so that other applications can be plomped together to use that data.

For solar panel systems, as a random example, CSV files could be generated with time stamps and overall energy since the beginning of time. Some random energy monitors could do the same; then, using spreadsheets to combine this all in some useful-to-the-user format could be made to work. And automated with macros or something.

The point is that the data should be provided at such a low level that it’s a zero-brain function for the collector of such data to provide it. Even across multiple software releases and time, which means that applications riding on top of that data don’t break.

Yeah, I agree with data being portable, etc. There are two schools of thought on "in the app" though.

1. "lets try to show everything in our app. Lets give the ability to aggregate various data sources in our app, so its a "one stop shop" and people think about us first when they think about XXX.

Something like apple health, or various other fitness apps, or homekit / google home fall into this category. I see this approach as a company trying to get mindshare (or glomp onto the data themselves, or both.

Or.

2. Lets make our app the best it can be, and use our data source(s). Let the customer have different targeted apps for their needs, but lets make our app particular to our product.

To me, I usually see this from a company who is, (or is trying to be) a market leader in a category, and force others to adapt to their standards.

We have seen this same thing play out over the years in tech, from things like VHS Vs betamax, computer file formats, etc etc.

We are trending toward more data portability, with even companies like tesla having unofficial APIs that people are successfully using to access data etc, but I believe that tesla is not interested in being "point 1" above.

 

[BGbreeder]

TL ; DR -- There is no benefit at all to tesla the company in doing this, only extra costs supporting stuff fielding questions about individual loads from customers.

============================================


No im not surprised, because its not that easy. Many people dont have room in their panels for "more stuff", it requires putting CTs on every wire, an additional hardware device (connected to power), and would insert tesla into the middle of discussions they dont shouldnt (and probably dont) want to be in, like "why is my range taking so much power?"


Perhaps this is because I am in a support organization in my day job, and have spent my entire working carreer, from my first job in a fast food restaurant to where I am now in my mid 50s, working in "some" form of customer support I have a fairly specific view to this, but....


Whenever a company representative, or a company "assists" with something, they effectively own it in the customers eyes, regardless of whether that was done "as a courtesy", or whether they were told " this is best effort but let me try....."

I will give you a specific example to better explain what I mean.

When I was much younger, and early in my IT career my mom used to tell her friends "Oh my son knows about computers, he can help you with XXXXX" (keep in mind im 55 years old now, and I was like 20-22 for this story, to place where computers were then). So,I would perform some action for them, and then "forever more" they would call me if "something" (anything) didnt work with the computer.

If I wasnt interested in fixing it, sometimes they would get a bit belligerent or say something like "well it didnt do this until you XXXXXX" (I guarantee you anyone and everyone who has ever performed any support function for anyone has heard "it didnt do this until you XXXXX" from someone, whether that XXXXXX is relevant to what is being asked or not.

The point is, if Tesla facilitated this, they would have to own such a solution. They would have to also own why, for some people, "Im sorry, you cant get the snazzy individual circuit level monitoring that is shown as available, you have no room in your panel" would not be an acceptable response. See the various people who were expecting to get regular consumption data at the house level, and didnt because "no room in panel / no neurio devices" and were "upset" about it to see that would be multiplied in this situation.


With a "bunch of data", for many people, comes not only extra scrutiny, but a bunch of extra questions. See all the people who install Teslafi. / Stats / Teslamate or some other third party application for "monitoring" their tesla vehicle, and they freak the $%Q$%$% out about why their wh/mi is "higher than average", why the app shows their battery degradation is "in the 70% percentile, but tesla wont listen!!!!!" etc.

Tesla would be bombarded with questions about circuit power usage, why the neighbors house uses less power for their lights "but its the same floorplan!" or other such questions.

What do they get in exchange for doing that? There is no benefit on the company side for tesla to provide this information / perform these hookups. Extra support / support costs, but no benefit whatsoever to tesla the company from people having this extra data.

There is benefit to some people for having it, but none for Tesla. Much better to skip that support nightmare, expense, customer service issue etc and leave that to a customer to pick the product, and get it installed, and understand that data themselves, without a recommendation from Tesla on specific product.

I just don't see smart panels as being viable.

Data sensing is one thing, but placing sensing and control structures in a main service panel takes you into what I think are truly staggering levels of liability.

This isn't a smartphone to be discarded in five years, and whose failure is, at most, a depreciated piece of electronics.

From where I sit, putting that many discrete components into a system with a design life of 30-50 years and the potential for larger damages if failures occurs is a liability nightmare. The MTBF number is not going to be a billion hours, so that means whomever puts out a device not only owns all future electrical damage to the home, and the home itself for as long as the device is there, but that the failures are probable. You can avoid that with a couple chunks of pressed aluminum or copper, items that everyone knows how to make, and has made for decades. For current sensing, control switches (x40), I just don't see it. Even if someone delivers a solid state CT today, it will be many years before anyone has any confidence in its failure rate. Solid state relays have MTTF (mean time to failure) in the million hour range, but, and I think that it is a big but, they aren't usually installed close to the meter, where they are exposed to all of the line noise (surge, lightning, etc.) that occurs on the main service panel. Look at how short the lifespan on arc fault and GFCI breakers and outlets are, now divide that MTTF by forty and you start to see why the time to failure is such an issue, and why manufacturers aren't rushing to make these.

If you are interested, go read up on the history on Zinsco for an idea of what happens when you don't get it right. What Is A Zinsco Panel And Why Should I Care?

For the record, I don't think Span will make it, either. Even if Tesla, or Schneider put out a smart main panel, i.e. have the resources and other product lines to stay in business, I wouldn't be rushing to install a "smart" panel. Obviously, many other folks feel differently.

All the best,

BG

 

[Vines]

Thanks so much everyone for the replies!

Yep that is to sort of thing - Span... (unfortunately I can't get it here)..

But don;t you think it's amazing that Tesla hasn't done it?

I mean how easy would it be? ...monitor and control individual circuits right within the Tesla gateway app?

The benefits and energy savings, not to mention the future AI - I mean it would be enormous ...

Frankly (from such a far reaching, robotised, AI and far thinking organisation like Tesla) I'm staggered Tesla hasn't done it already..

Why is that?

Curious why you all think it hasn't happened already..

Cheers

There are many ways in which Tesla products CAN be used that they may develop over time, as they have the time and energy. For now I think Elon sees that if all focus isn't put into accelerating the transition to sustainable energy, then it's easy to get distracted by nice-to-haves.

With the right software, the TEG could probably simulate the function of a Sense power monitoring device, or even do better.

But honestly, only less than 5% of customers want this for more than a novelty, and Tesla doesn't need customers to want this as pointed out above. It's much easier for Tesla to just double down or triple down on the existing solar PV and ESS technology and generate and store it in as many ways as practical.

 

[Jay Gatsby]

ok cool.. Tesla isn't going to do it. Fine no problem! I'll DIY - and I'll live outside their app!

See that's my point.. there is value in spending the time doing this sort of thing (as a company)

Why?

So the end user doesn't live outside your "ecosystem" and migrate to opposition product...

And what makes you stick as a consumer (and not migrate).. Well it's the app!

Isn't this precisely what they are doing with the smarts in the cars? So why not with the house?

Tesla doesn't want me to use their app? No problem! That what Tesla want to be? A dumb battery maker? I highly doubt that!

But seems I don't have the choice...So I'll just plug in the powerwall (use it as a dumb battery like they seem to want me to use it!??) and use someone else ecosystem

So what ya'll using then? Home Assistant? Hubitat?

Cheers

 

[Vines]

ok cool.. Tesla isn't going to do it. Fine no problem! I'll DIY - and I'll live outside their app!

See that's my point.. there is value in spending the time doing this sort of thing (as a company)

Why?

So the end user doesn't live outside your "ecosystem" and migrate to opposition product...

And what makes you stick as a consumer (and not migrate).. Well it's the app!

Isn't this precisely what they are doing with the smarts in the cars? So why not with the house?

Tesla doesn't want me to use their app? No problem! That what Tesla want to be? A dumb battery maker? I highly doubt that!

But seems I don't have the choice...So I'll just plug in the powerwall (use it as a dumb battery like they seem to want me to use it!??) and use someone else ecosystem

So what ya'll using then? Home Assistant? Hubitat?

Cheers

The Powerwalls have an API, so if you want to build an integration you theoretically could!

In the event that others start migrating away from Tesla Powerwalls due to lack of features this might be a thing. Until then they are the most desireable option, at least in this market. This fine monitoring and control is not a thing that most consumers want from Tesla. The ones that do, buy a SPAN panel and this intercepts the Powerwall data signal and works with it to monitor and manage loads and provide overcurrent protection.

Most customers buy Powerwall for a smart battery to store solar PV, manage demand spikes, avoid TOU charges and provide power under backup situations. They want them available and want them cheaper.

 

[Jay Gatsby]

^ Sure I get it!!!.. the home power monitoring market is a dog's breakfast of different energy retailers, manufactures , devices, protocols etc - I get it!
But, Just like every other market Tesla has come in and totally dominated (and fixed the mess) that has been like this before. I'm talking Internet, EV Autos, (and now home battery storage) - That's precisely why Tesla should (and could) fix it!
And how do they do that?
Just have a couple simple power monitors you can interface..heck I'd even accept some wall sockets and zigbee power cords ...that homeowners can plug and play into the Tesla gateway..
I mean der... a zigbee dongle in the gateway, or powerwall or something.. how easy would that be?

 

[Jay Gatsby]

I mean call me daft or something... but to do something simple like this seems a total no brainer

 

[Jay Gatsby]

..with so many of these smart home and smart energy platforms continuing to go business at the drop of a hat.. I mean I just want to stay with someone who won't! Tesla. I like IT platforms to last more than a couple years! I mean call me old fashioned! Just MO!

^ edit go out of business