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Here's the latest information I have on the custom rotors from Dave who'll be fabricating them. Great news, Dave came in under his original estimate. We're looking at $1032 plus the cost of the metal treatment for a set of 4 slotted rotors:
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"I will get a quote on the hats next week, looks like the iron friction disks and mounting bolts, assembled will be $158 each if we do smooth rotors, add $18 each if you want slots. (8) 5/16" grade 5 fasteners will increase the strength from the Elise sets I have made in the past by 54%, should be more than enough to offset the 40% increase in weight of the Roadster. Fasteners will be safety wired post assembly.
4 rotors w/fasteners, assembled, smooth $632+treatment
4 rotors w/fasteners, assembled, slotted $704+treatment
My plan is to use the same hats on all 4 wheels to get the cost down for these parts, 40 of the same parts will be ~30% less than 2 set of 20 parts. The increased weight should not be a big detractor for street cars. As a reference in 2008 when we did the last big batch of Elise rotors, cost for the hats were $85 each with nickel plating. I would guess we can get sets of 4 for about $400 for loose planning.
I will close the loop with the treating company to get an idea of cost and lead time for their part of the project."
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So the latest estimated cost would be:
Slotted Rotors: $704 for 4 slotted rotors + $400 for the 4 nickle plated aluminum hats = $1104 for the complete set plus the cost of the metal/rust treatment.
Smooth Rotors: $632 for 4 smooth rotors+$400 for the 4 nickle plated aluminum hats = $1032 for the complete set plus the cost of metal/rust treatment.
I see no reason personally to run smooth rotors. But if that's something you desire, its an option, just let me know if you want smooth. Otherwise the choice will default to slotted.
I'll ask Dave what type of payment he accepts. I know he has a business, possibly he can accept credit cards. Otherwise I can ask for his paypal account and we can send the money that way.
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"I will get a quote on the hats next week, looks like the iron friction disks and mounting bolts, assembled will be $158 each if we do smooth rotors, add $18 each if you want slots. (8) 5/16" grade 5 fasteners will increase the strength from the Elise sets I have made in the past by 54%, should be more than enough to offset the 40% increase in weight of the Roadster. Fasteners will be safety wired post assembly.
4 rotors w/fasteners, assembled, smooth $632+treatment
4 rotors w/fasteners, assembled, slotted $704+treatment
My plan is to use the same hats on all 4 wheels to get the cost down for these parts, 40 of the same parts will be ~30% less than 2 set of 20 parts. The increased weight should not be a big detractor for street cars. As a reference in 2008 when we did the last big batch of Elise rotors, cost for the hats were $85 each with nickel plating. I would guess we can get sets of 4 for about $400 for loose planning.
I will close the loop with the treating company to get an idea of cost and lead time for their part of the project."
--------------------
So the latest estimated cost would be:
Slotted Rotors: $704 for 4 slotted rotors + $400 for the 4 nickle plated aluminum hats = $1104 for the complete set plus the cost of the metal/rust treatment.
Smooth Rotors: $632 for 4 smooth rotors+$400 for the 4 nickle plated aluminum hats = $1032 for the complete set plus the cost of metal/rust treatment.
I see no reason personally to run smooth rotors. But if that's something you desire, its an option, just let me know if you want smooth. Otherwise the choice will default to slotted.
I'll ask Dave what type of payment he accepts. I know he has a business, possibly he can accept credit cards. Otherwise I can ask for his paypal account and we can send the money that way.
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Fabrizio
Member
This is a response I received from AP Racing when I inquired about replacement parts:
Good Afternoon
Thanks for your enquiry.
The pad set number (4 pads) for the Tesla calipers is CP5119D50KX-T4139.
The caliper part number (RH/LH) is CP5134-6/7T0.
The discs (Ø300x26mm) are CP6552-102/3SD: LOT .
These are AP Racing part numbers but you will need to contact Tesla to order the parts.
Thanks & Regards
Good Afternoon
Thanks for your enquiry.
The pad set number (4 pads) for the Tesla calipers is CP5119D50KX-T4139.
The caliper part number (RH/LH) is CP5134-6/7T0.
The discs (Ø300x26mm) are CP6552-102/3SD: LOT .
These are AP Racing part numbers but you will need to contact Tesla to order the parts.
Thanks & Regards
When he did this for the Elise and NSX owners he didn't accept credit cards or PayPal unless you paid the processing fee - about 2 or 3%. He accepted checks. Keep in mind these figures are a preliminary estimate and don't include shipping and corrosion resistance coating. The order also has to be pre-paid.
He owns a machine shop and has a great reputation in the Lotus community. He's been involved in racing for a long time and has a wealth of information about braking systems.
I'm looking forward to this. It will provide better braking and performance. Lighter un-sprung weight = better acceleration and handling.
Might be interested as well, however, I do a lot of driving in rainy conditions too. As wiztecy posted in #33, drilled would be the way to go then. Could it also be possible to have Dave the Fabricator make a set that's drilled instead? Or would that just complicate a group buy?
Further, (potential dumb question alert) is an upgrade of the pads mandatory with these new rotors, or could I stay with the orginals?
Further, (potential dumb question alert) is an upgrade of the pads mandatory with these new rotors, or could I stay with the orginals?
I don't think Dave wants to touch drilled rotors, he only gave 2 options which were smooth or slotted. Best option I feel would be slotted.
As for upgrading the brake pads, even if you chose not to go with these custom rotors I suggest personally its mandatory alone to upgrade your pads to what we've found to work very well with the Roadster which are the CarboTechs. You can read up on the pads you can go with, the AX6 which are the streetable / autocross compound or the street compound BobCat 1521. You can also try other pads if you like, but these have yielded fantastic results on the Roadster. If you do go with the custom Rotors and you already are running the Carbotechs, you can use the existing pad as long as your previous rotor was fairly smooth (to ensure the pad is smooth) and that pad is not cracked (which I see no reason it should be. The stock pads are known to crack / break apart). Finally, I would then do the bed-in process with the new rotors. Either way, existing or new pad the bed-in process will need to be performed on the new rotors. I would guess if the brake pads had any type of grooves from the rotor you could shave/sand that down as well. I'm going to use my existing Carbotech pad I'm running on the stock rotor which is smooth / no grooves, and sand down the pad to get a nice surface working for the bed-in process when the new rotors go on.
With the new rotors we're looking to do two heat treatments (to prevent corrosion/rust), the first with be the nitrogen treatment, the second will be the black oxide. The nitrogen treatment is basically the same thing they do on the Chevy Volt and leaves a sand blasted look / grey color on the rotor. Results have shown that braking in wet conditions have improved using this process on the rotor. The second and final coating will be a black oxide, this is the coating you see in the EBC slotted rotors, it looks anodized. This too has been shown to improve braking performance in the rain. It also will offer a nice look and protect the rotor.
So in the end we should have a slotted cast rotor that's all black including inside the veins, and then a nickle plated inner aluminum hat. Should look pretty sweet and perform even better.
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Was impressed with the Nitrogen research you did and the black final coating sounds fantastic. I can imagine how the black performance wheels will look with these black rotors.
Somehow missed the 'braking better in wet conditions' part when reading about the Volt-treatment, but sounds even better. We got some Volt's here as well so I'll check out on their rain performance and report back with a n=1 test result.
Somehow missed the 'braking better in wet conditions' part when reading about the Volt-treatment, but sounds even better. We got some Volt's here as well so I'll check out on their rain performance and report back with a n=1 test result.
All, we have the final pricing and we currently do have the 10 rotors required to make this production run happen. Please let me know if the list is correct, meaning if you're on it that you're still committed and the quantity is correct or if you're interested in a set and would like to be added to the list.
We're looking for the total price to be: $1,595
This will include:
-Aluminum inner hats that will be nickel plated added for corrosion protection
-Cast steel outer steel rotor - slotted design
-FNC (ferritic nitrocarburizing) metal treatment - is a series of case hardening processes that will diffuse nitrogen and carbon into the steel rotor surface. This will help prevent corrosion as well as help performance in wet braking conditions. This will be the 1st coat of the rotor surface.
-Black oxide - a metal treating process that adds a corrosion resistant coating to the rotor's surface. It is found to also help with performance of braking in wet conditions. This coating will be the last and final coating on the rotor.
-Rotor assembled using hardened bolts that are safety tied to prevent any chance of the bolt from backing out while in use.
Below is a picture of what a rotor looks like with the black oxide coating. Note this is a random 1 piece slotted rotor I pulled from the Internet. The rotors we're making are a two piece design, where the aluminum hat or inner part of our rotor will have a shiny nickel finish and the outer cast steel disk will have black oxide outer finish:
As for weight of the 2 piece rotor compared to the stock rotor, we won't have that until the rotors are made. What we can say is that they will be lighter than the stock rotors. Dave offered a lighter option where the hat sizes would be different from the front vs. the back. This then drives up the cost of production since two hat designs and runs need to be executed. Cost went up $500 / set. Dave also indicated he could make them full-floating, again driving up the cost significantly. We wanted to keep the cost down but add as many benefits as we could at the current price point. We're at the same cost as the stock Telsa rotor but with many many more advantages that will aid in performance as well as overall durability. So I feel its a great value for the performance that'll be achieved.
I have the following list with those who're interested in one or two sets of rotors. Please verify that this is correct and also if you want to add, remove, or change the quantity ordered in the list. Once the order has been closed and production has started, we won't be able to change the order. I also don't see us making another run of these disks again. One thing is that the Roadster does not really wear through rotors, so this will be most likely the last and only set you'll ever need. I contacted Dave to see if that we ever did need to have the outer steel disk ring made, that he would be able to make those for us in the future. Again I don't see us having a need for this.
Here's the current list as of 1/08/2015:
-Hcsharp: (1 set)
-Tobash: (1 set)
-Adiggs: (1 set)
-Wiztecy: (1 set)
-visionik: (2 sets)
-ggr: (1 set)
-EMF: (1 set)
-Roadster08: (1 set)
-TSLAVP16: (1 set)
I hope I didn't miss anyone, if so please let me know.
Total sets of rotors to be ordered: 10
*Note: 1 rotor set = 4 individual rotors (2 front rotors, 2 rear rotors). Both the front and rear rotors will use the same exact aluminum hat which allows a lower cost in production and final pricing.
As for time, Dave indicated 12 weeks from when the funds are received to complete the order.
As for payment this is what Dave indicated:
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Checks for payment works great for me, that way there are no fees, great for everyone! Get the ball rolling and use my address below for the checks, make sure everyone includes:
$1595 check or money order
shipping address
contact phone number
contact e-mail address
I will contact each individual when the rotor sets are ready to ship and we can arrange payment for shipping at that time, CC or PP payment.
--------------------
So on our side, we need to make sure the list is correct and add anyone new who's interested in a set. Once that's done/finalized, we then will coordinate a time frame to send Dave a check or money order as well as your contact information. I'll then have Dave confirm via email that he had received your order, and when he has received the 10th payment to let us know he's moving forward with production. After he's done with the production run and the rotors are assembled he'll email each person on the list indicating their rotor set is complete as well as the exact cost of having the rotor shipped to you. Payment for shipping the rotors would then be paid to Dave via money order, check, credit card, or paypal. Once shipping payment is received by Dave he'll then ship out your set of rotors.
If you have any questions feel free to respond to this thread or PM me.
We're looking for the total price to be: $1,595
This will include:
-Aluminum inner hats that will be nickel plated added for corrosion protection
-Cast steel outer steel rotor - slotted design
-FNC (ferritic nitrocarburizing) metal treatment - is a series of case hardening processes that will diffuse nitrogen and carbon into the steel rotor surface. This will help prevent corrosion as well as help performance in wet braking conditions. This will be the 1st coat of the rotor surface.
-Black oxide - a metal treating process that adds a corrosion resistant coating to the rotor's surface. It is found to also help with performance of braking in wet conditions. This coating will be the last and final coating on the rotor.
-Rotor assembled using hardened bolts that are safety tied to prevent any chance of the bolt from backing out while in use.
Below is a picture of what a rotor looks like with the black oxide coating. Note this is a random 1 piece slotted rotor I pulled from the Internet. The rotors we're making are a two piece design, where the aluminum hat or inner part of our rotor will have a shiny nickel finish and the outer cast steel disk will have black oxide outer finish:
As for weight of the 2 piece rotor compared to the stock rotor, we won't have that until the rotors are made. What we can say is that they will be lighter than the stock rotors. Dave offered a lighter option where the hat sizes would be different from the front vs. the back. This then drives up the cost of production since two hat designs and runs need to be executed. Cost went up $500 / set. Dave also indicated he could make them full-floating, again driving up the cost significantly. We wanted to keep the cost down but add as many benefits as we could at the current price point. We're at the same cost as the stock Telsa rotor but with many many more advantages that will aid in performance as well as overall durability. So I feel its a great value for the performance that'll be achieved.
I have the following list with those who're interested in one or two sets of rotors. Please verify that this is correct and also if you want to add, remove, or change the quantity ordered in the list. Once the order has been closed and production has started, we won't be able to change the order. I also don't see us making another run of these disks again. One thing is that the Roadster does not really wear through rotors, so this will be most likely the last and only set you'll ever need. I contacted Dave to see if that we ever did need to have the outer steel disk ring made, that he would be able to make those for us in the future. Again I don't see us having a need for this.
Here's the current list as of 1/08/2015:
-Hcsharp: (1 set)
-Tobash: (1 set)
-Adiggs: (1 set)
-Wiztecy: (1 set)
-visionik: (2 sets)
-ggr: (1 set)
-EMF: (1 set)
-Roadster08: (1 set)
-TSLAVP16: (1 set)
I hope I didn't miss anyone, if so please let me know.
Total sets of rotors to be ordered: 10
*Note: 1 rotor set = 4 individual rotors (2 front rotors, 2 rear rotors). Both the front and rear rotors will use the same exact aluminum hat which allows a lower cost in production and final pricing.
As for time, Dave indicated 12 weeks from when the funds are received to complete the order.
As for payment this is what Dave indicated:
--------------------
Checks for payment works great for me, that way there are no fees, great for everyone! Get the ball rolling and use my address below for the checks, make sure everyone includes:
$1595 check or money order
shipping address
contact phone number
contact e-mail address
I will contact each individual when the rotor sets are ready to ship and we can arrange payment for shipping at that time, CC or PP payment.
--------------------
So on our side, we need to make sure the list is correct and add anyone new who's interested in a set. Once that's done/finalized, we then will coordinate a time frame to send Dave a check or money order as well as your contact information. I'll then have Dave confirm via email that he had received your order, and when he has received the 10th payment to let us know he's moving forward with production. After he's done with the production run and the rotors are assembled he'll email each person on the list indicating their rotor set is complete as well as the exact cost of having the rotor shipped to you. Payment for shipping the rotors would then be paid to Dave via money order, check, credit card, or paypal. Once shipping payment is received by Dave he'll then ship out your set of rotors.
If you have any questions feel free to respond to this thread or PM me.
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adiggs
Well-Known Member
One suggestion wiztecy - I would take this most recent post out to a new thread, as we're moving out of the realm of possibility and into the "we're doing this" realm. A new thread might have the beneficial side effect of drawing others that have been on the fence into action.
I'm not backing out or anything, but wondering... doesn't the 3.0 upgrade include changes to brakes? Might we want to hold off on this purchase until details become available?
Will do, just need to come up with a catchy title! Will contact the mods when I do. Thanks!
Thanks for not backing out ggr
We really don't know what the upgrade will be for the brakes. One thing I can say, it won't be cheap and it won't be $1600 either. I'm also certain they're not going to put the rotors through a single let alone a double metal treatment process to prevent corrosion.
If people want to wait it out that's fine. But those who're committed and already know they don't want to move to what Tesla is offering, we can start to get the ball rolling.
I don't want to rush or pressure people either, just want to keep things moving forward.
If you can get 10 people again in the future and he has time available he may be able to, but its not guaranteed. I was lucky to get him at a time where he wasn't too busy with his other commitments and businesses.
Since we don't use our brakes as much as a traditional car our brakes and rotors will last longer. Dave told me that since the CarboTechs have such great initial bite that a trade off is that they'll also wear the rotors faster. Honestly I don't at all see significant wear on my rotors after putting the CarboTechs on and look almost exactly as what they looked like when I had the rotors cold cut when the Roadster had 6,000 miles. That's when the CarboTechs went on. I don't see any grooves in the rotors and the CarboTechs are running flat across the rotor. I now have 40,000 miles on my Roadster. Dave also said since we don't use our brakes as often that they should be the last set we'll need on the Roadster, hence why he was pointing to the full floating and super light option that would have ran $3,000.
What will wear off over time will be the metal treatment that we're layering on. The first to go will be the black oxide where the brake pad rides on the disk, the next will be a tougher layer which was done with the FNC process, but that one is more durable than the black oxide. That should take some time to get though both of those. And even so, you could pull the disks off the hats, throw on your original Roadster rotors, and have the disks re-treated. They just need to be cleaned up very well so the surface has a good area for elements in the process to bind to.
Lastly if you do find you need another set, say you're racing at the track every weekend, the entire rotor does not need to be replaced. Only the outer cast disk. The inner aluminum hat is re-used. So that will be cheaper to replace, then you're under the cost of what replacing a single stock rotor would be from Tesla.
Henry, adiggs, and myself have been communicating together with Dave for over the past month asking questions, getting measurements, asking more questions, so I want to send a special thanks to those guys in helping to move this forward.
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Here to report back on the Volt brakes. They did some excellent braking when I tried to 'hurt' the car. So the Ferro Nitrogen treatment on their rotors, to me, looks fine!
Wondering though, could combining a second treatment affect or somehow adversely interact with the first treatment? Have the factories offering the treatment made any comment on that?
Wondering though, could combining a second treatment affect or somehow adversely interact with the first treatment? Have the factories offering the treatment made any comment on that?
He said "This will be the last set of rotors you'll ever have to buy for your car." Based on the comments in the Lotus forum, he's right. And most of those comments were from racers who beat their rotors pretty hard. My OEM rotors often have a thin film of rust from washing the car a lot and general wet weather. The nickel-plated aluminum hats will never rust. While the friction disks can still rust, they are far more resistant to corrosion.
I'm pretty excited about this upgrade. Here are the benefits I expect:
- Lighter with resulting performance improvement
- Vastly improved corrosion resistance. No more rusty rotors.
- Slightly improved braking when wet, no brake fade and pad loading from rust.
- Longer lasting than OEM rotors for about the same price.
Adding ViperDoc to the list.
Current list as of 1/09/2015:
-Hcsharp: (1 set)
-Tobash: (1 set)
-Adiggs: (1 set)
-Wiztecy: (1 set)
-visionik: (2 sets)
-ggr: (1 set)
-EMF: (1 set)
-Roadster08: (1 set)
-TSLAVP16: (1 set)
-ViperDoc: (1 set)
--------------------
Total sets: 11
Current list as of 1/09/2015:
-Hcsharp: (1 set)
-Tobash: (1 set)
-Adiggs: (1 set)
-Wiztecy: (1 set)
-visionik: (2 sets)
-ggr: (1 set)
-EMF: (1 set)
-Roadster08: (1 set)
-TSLAVP16: (1 set)
-ViperDoc: (1 set)
--------------------
Total sets: 11
