Although the RAV4-EV only makes 67hp, it has 190Nm of torque (approximately 140 lb./ft.) from 0-1,500 rpm. That is a reasonable amount of torque to get you going off the line. So if you are going up hill and have to stop and start a lot it feels peppy enough. I am not so sure about uphill high speed freeway cruising.
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Uh .. somehow I have the feeling that the Whitstar is not being designed as a competitor to the eBox. From what I heard it is to be a luxury sedan something on the scale of a BMW 7 series. This makes it a bit heavier then the Scion donor for the eBox. Also both specs you keep quoting only deal with peak power not continuous power. I don't think Tesla would want to have their name on a rather large luxury sedan that can only maintain 67 hp (50 KW) continuous power.
By the way I am not sure why you consider this a major weight & complexity issue. They already have a liquid cooled battery, they only need to scale the system up a bit to include the motor. The difficult part as far as the Roadster is concerned is that it wasn't initially designed with this in mind and it is very late in the game for this type of change.
Yanquetino
Member
Apples and oranges
I wasn't trying to suggest that the eBox mini-van is a competitor to the Whitestar sedan. They are indeed different fruits. I was simply trying to point out that EVs with respectable performances do not necessarily need radiators.
If --as you say-- they want to create an EV competitor for the BMW 7 series, well... they've got their work cut out for them! And it will take a lot more than a radiator. That sedan weighs nearly 4500 lbs., boasts 360 hp, has a drag coefficient of .29, does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds, and has a top speed of 150 mph. Price? Between $75,800 and $122,600, sans accessories and taxes --depending upon the model.
You know what? If that is the performance and price they are using as a yardstick for the Whitestar... I think I'll forego that "luxury" and wait for the Mitsubishi iMiEV or the Subaru G4e, thanks!
I wasn't trying to suggest that the eBox mini-van is a competitor to the Whitestar sedan. They are indeed different fruits. I was simply trying to point out that EVs with respectable performances do not necessarily need radiators.
If --as you say-- they want to create an EV competitor for the BMW 7 series, well... they've got their work cut out for them! And it will take a lot more than a radiator. That sedan weighs nearly 4500 lbs., boasts 360 hp, has a drag coefficient of .29, does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds, and has a top speed of 150 mph. Price? Between $75,800 and $122,600, sans accessories and taxes --depending upon the model.
You know what? If that is the performance and price they are using as a yardstick for the Whitestar... I think I'll forego that "luxury" and wait for the Mitsubishi iMiEV or the Subaru G4e, thanks!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I remember very clearly that Tesla stated the Whitestar will be competition for the BMW 5 series. This makes sense as they wanted to price the Whitestar at around $50-60k, right around where the 5 series is priced. Where did you get info that they will challenge the 7 series?! Was this just announced at this town hall meeting?
As for your questions about liquid cooling I can give a simple analysis. Judging by the 1000lb battery pack in the current roadster, I would say the weight of the whitestar will be closest to the V8 550i and V10 M5 both at ~4000lbs, maybe even more. The whitestar will likely compete with the 550i as it's priced less than $60k while the M5 is priced at $80k. 0-60 in the 550i is 5.5secs. As it's going to be priced nearer the 550i, I would doubt Tesla could include as much weight reduction as the Roadster or the M5 (which is around the same weight as the 550i despite it's V10). 4000lbs minus 2700lbs of the Tesla Roadster means the Whitestar will be at least 1300lbs heavier than the roadster. Right now even just driving the Roadster there were cases of overheating when driven very hard. If the Whitestar is to perform 0-60 in 5.5 secs it would need to do so carrying 1300lbs more weight and possibility of carrying 4-5 passengers. If driven hard you can see that there is still big chance of overheating like in the Roadster. You are right that in most cases the liquid cooling is not really needed, but seeing as Tesla is planning to do this with one gear also, I could see where liquid cooling might be needed, esp if they are using around the same motor and just upping the voltage to increase the power. It shouldn't cost too much more as even the Th!nk EV had a liquid cooled 3-phase AC induction motor.
I remember reading recently that M. Bricklins Visionary Vehicles project expects to utilize an electric motor which produces almost no excess heat. Although he didn't go into details regarding the motor, I would wonder whether it might behove Tesla to check out the possibility of adopting an externally manufactured motor.
TEG:
In case you are not being sarcastic, here is an answer.
"Trouble" is, that "waste heat" is being generated "only" when the motor is rotating i.e. the car is moving. The faster it moves, the more power it is using and more waste heat is being generated. When you stop, no waste heat alas no heat for you. When you are going downhill with no power to the motor - no heat for you.
In the morning, when you sit into your cold car and slowly back off out of your garage - sorry, no heat for you.
Additionaly, The Roadster has and will have aircooled motor. Air keeps very low amounts of heat so you cannot store warm air on-board for occasions when you'll need it. So yes, the waste heat is sent into the athmosphere. As much and as quick as possible to keep the motor as cold as possible. The eMotor does not need to warm up as ICEs do, to function properly. Actually the colder it is, better it will function (more efficient).
As for WhiteStar if indeed it gets liquid cooling I guess they will use that trapped heat for heating the cabin just as in an ordinary ICE car. Additional electric heater will probably be added for faster cabin heat-ups.
Michael:
80% - 90% efficiency is very darn close to best possible that still makes sense. If we decrease losses tenfold, we only increase efficiency by 10%. Are you sure its worth it?
In case you are not being sarcastic, here is an answer.
"Trouble" is, that "waste heat" is being generated "only" when the motor is rotating i.e. the car is moving. The faster it moves, the more power it is using and more waste heat is being generated. When you stop, no waste heat alas no heat for you. When you are going downhill with no power to the motor - no heat for you.
In the morning, when you sit into your cold car and slowly back off out of your garage - sorry, no heat for you.
Additionaly, The Roadster has and will have aircooled motor. Air keeps very low amounts of heat so you cannot store warm air on-board for occasions when you'll need it. So yes, the waste heat is sent into the athmosphere. As much and as quick as possible to keep the motor as cold as possible. The eMotor does not need to warm up as ICEs do, to function properly. Actually the colder it is, better it will function (more efficient).
As for WhiteStar if indeed it gets liquid cooling I guess they will use that trapped heat for heating the cabin just as in an ordinary ICE car. Additional electric heater will probably be added for faster cabin heat-ups.
Michael:
That means very low power and very slow response and very low torque and very low max rpm. Do you want 100 or 1 kW car? I'd say that quote is pure marketing b*llsh*t or something was lost in translation.
80% - 90% efficiency is very darn close to best possible that still makes sense. If we decrease losses tenfold, we only increase efficiency by 10%. Are you sure its worth it?
I agree calling it a 7 series competitor may be a bit of a stretch, but we do know that it has been stated to be in the BMW class and we do have this Elon quote from another thread.
I am not all that familiar with BMW sedans so I am not sure were that leaves it as far as size goes.
My whole point is that with the roadster they started with the smallest lightest sports car they could find and put a carbon fiber body on it! With this they ran into conditions that would force them to reduce motor power to maintain a safe motor temperature. Also remember it is not a few short peak power runs that cause a heat problem, it is sustained high power operation which is why you see the much lower continuous power rating in your previous example.
Now take a car that is likely a bit larger then the BMW 5 series (and doesn't use carbon fiber) we know that it will be much heavier then the Roadster. You may not have a problem if it can only maintain 50 - 55 mph over some interstate mountain pass but many people that spend from 60 to 70 K for a luxury sedan will expect it to be able to maintain 70 to 80 mph.
graham
Active Member
I am assuming that this is the RAV 4 EV I occasionally pass on highway 17 coming home from work over the Santa Cruz mountains (as it has an 1800' climb). If this is indeed the one, keep in mind that highway 17 has a 50 MPH speed limit which may or may not fall into the category of "highway speeds" for some people. This is not to say that the RAV4 EV may not be able to go 65 or 70 on the same hill, I don't know. The RAV 4 EV s a pretty amazing car.
Yanquetino
Member
Small world... er... highway.
Graham: I'll bet that is Patty's RAV4-EV that you see when coming home from work, as she does commute on highway 17. Since Toyota only sold 328 of them, the chances of it belonging to somebody else are very slim indeed.
Thanks for the clarification on the speed limit up there. Since it is posted at 50, I would imagine that most folks (you included) drive the straight stretches at close to 60.
That's actually a higher speed limit than I imagined for a mountain road. I'm pretty impressed with what the RAV4-EV can handle with its 67 hp motor. I sure wish that Toyota would turn the lights back on in the factory and resurrect those cars with lithium ion. :frown:
Graham: I'll bet that is Patty's RAV4-EV that you see when coming home from work, as she does commute on highway 17. Since Toyota only sold 328 of them, the chances of it belonging to somebody else are very slim indeed.
Thanks for the clarification on the speed limit up there. Since it is posted at 50, I would imagine that most folks (you included) drive the straight stretches at close to 60.
That's actually a higher speed limit than I imagined for a mountain road. I'm pretty impressed with what the RAV4-EV can handle with its 67 hp motor. I sure wish that Toyota would turn the lights back on in the factory and resurrect those cars with lithium ion. :frown:
Regarding waste motor heat to the cabin - yes I know it wouldn't be available except when doing hard acceleration. It still seems like you shouldn't waste it since it might be a cold day and you could be trying to run the interior heater at the same time. I wasn't being sarcastic, and I wasn't suggesting that it would be the only source of heat. Just a source of pre-heated air that would sometimes be available to supplement the normal heater.
Regarding Whitestar target & size - I recall them saying it was intended to be a 5 series competitor, then later it would have a width closer to a 7 series. I posted a few times that (personally) I think that is so wide to be inconvenient, so I hope they don't make it that wide. My guess is that they have a body design worked out already, so suggestions or comments now might be too late for any consideration.
I was thinking of moving the RAV4 comments out of this topic, but it is too intertwined. If people want to keep talking about Rav4EV we might want to start a new topic out of the news section.
Regarding Whitestar target & size - I recall them saying it was intended to be a 5 series competitor, then later it would have a width closer to a 7 series. I posted a few times that (personally) I think that is so wide to be inconvenient, so I hope they don't make it that wide. My guess is that they have a body design worked out already, so suggestions or comments now might be too late for any consideration.
I was thinking of moving the RAV4 comments out of this topic, but it is too intertwined. If people want to keep talking about Rav4EV we might want to start a new topic out of the news section.
Town Hall Meeting II recording is posted at Tesla's site.
They mentioned the current battery pack is capable of 1C charging i.e. it is possible to fully charge it in one hour. I am not really supprised about that as every cellphone or laptop batteries are capable of that also. The limiting factor is charging equipment and typical home installation limitations. How many people do have 80kW home grid connection? Anyone? No one? But they (TM) are thinking of creating special highpower charger to be installed in more frequent places like hotels where you would stop for a lunch and have your car quickcharged also. They mentioned it would probably be special DC highvoltage charger that would bypass the PEM and go directly into the batteries. I guess, this will come with Whitestar.
They mentioned you could fully charge the batteries with regen faster than if you'd plug it in. But they wouldn't recomend it
On the other news, Elon should get his car today.
Sub 4 second 0-60 time will still possible with new gearbox but they are targeting 4 second time in nonideal conditions. Top spead should stay around 125mph. Max rpm will be 14.000 or higher, eMotor will be aircooled. EPA range should increase slightly.
They mentioned the current battery pack is capable of 1C charging i.e. it is possible to fully charge it in one hour. I am not really supprised about that as every cellphone or laptop batteries are capable of that also. The limiting factor is charging equipment and typical home installation limitations. How many people do have 80kW home grid connection? Anyone? No one? But they (TM) are thinking of creating special highpower charger to be installed in more frequent places like hotels where you would stop for a lunch and have your car quickcharged also. They mentioned it would probably be special DC highvoltage charger that would bypass the PEM and go directly into the batteries. I guess, this will come with Whitestar.
They mentioned you could fully charge the batteries with regen faster than if you'd plug it in. But they wouldn't recomend it
On the other news, Elon should get his car today.
Sub 4 second 0-60 time will still possible with new gearbox but they are targeting 4 second time in nonideal conditions. Top spead should stay around 125mph. Max rpm will be 14.000 or higher, eMotor will be aircooled. EPA range should increase slightly.
mt2
Member
Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?
While they were laughing at the idea of recharging the car by having it towed home, I know I heard someone (Zak?) say, "It works. We've tried it."They mentioned you could fully charge the batteries with regen faster than if you'd plug it in. But they wouldn't recomend it
This is an important distinction that they stressed for everyone hoping for < 4 / 0-60 - Four seconds is and has been the target. But the official time is like the official mileage; your results may vary. They need an acceleration they can publish and hold to, and that is four seconds. No passenger and clean dry pavement etc should easily accelerate to 60 in less than four.
Yeah... All numbers are tentative, and subject to change, but estimates are something like:
0-60 in 4 (as was originally planned)
1/4 mile in maybe 12 (improvement over what the old 2 speed would do)
~230 mile EPA range (slight improvement)
~120+ MPH max (slight reduction)
Plans to just remove the "1" slot on the shift lever so you have R<->N<->D
The motor is always geared to the wheels. The shifter just sends commands to the PEM to control torque requests.
Park lock is automatic when you remove the key.
...No provision for "L" mode with enhanced regen??? ...
They "lucked out" and got a new type of IGBT for the PEM that can let them deliver more low end torque. The also think that some improved air cooling in the eMotor will let them rev up to 14,000 RPMs now. Lets hope that all their simulations and prototyping sails into production without any glitches.
0-60 in 4 (as was originally planned)
1/4 mile in maybe 12 (improvement over what the old 2 speed would do)
~230 mile EPA range (slight improvement)
~120+ MPH max (slight reduction)
Plans to just remove the "1" slot on the shift lever so you have R<->N<->D
The motor is always geared to the wheels. The shifter just sends commands to the PEM to control torque requests.
Park lock is automatic when you remove the key.
...No provision for "L" mode with enhanced regen??? ...
They "lucked out" and got a new type of IGBT for the PEM that can let them deliver more low end torque. The also think that some improved air cooling in the eMotor will let them rev up to 14,000 RPMs now. Lets hope that all their simulations and prototyping sails into production without any glitches.
It is odd for me listening to these because they bring up ideas that we talked about on the Tesla blogs long ago. I kept requesting that they consider a feature to allow regen while towing the roadster behind an RV. Maybe they remember that discussion and this was just a subtle confirmation that it is possible without actually recommending or endorsing the practice?
Obscure notes and questions from the Meeting audio.
Won't a higher reving motor -even a cooled one- wear out faster?
Sounds like the car will go just as fast in reverse. Nice for Bond to use in his next flick.
The new igbt is not in Tesla's usual "commodity" parameter
The biggest bummer in the meeting was the loss of real world acceleration from a standstill.
2 of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers have bought the Roadster
Elon confirms the positive return on investment for the 600 buyers of a Roadster.
Zeev's comment to a buyer about sharing the costs was bit rude. At least we know Martin has had 100K of his own money sitting in Tesla's bank until now. Has Zeev?
Won't a higher reving motor -even a cooled one- wear out faster?
Sounds like the car will go just as fast in reverse. Nice for Bond to use in his next flick.
The new igbt is not in Tesla's usual "commodity" parameter
The biggest bummer in the meeting was the loss of real world acceleration from a standstill.
2 of the Red Hot Chilli Peppers have bought the Roadster
Elon confirms the positive return on investment for the 600 buyers of a Roadster.
Zeev's comment to a buyer about sharing the costs was bit rude. At least we know Martin has had 100K of his own money sitting in Tesla's bank until now. Has Zeev?
Yes, maybe after 450.000 miles instead of 500.000 miles. Somewhere I read there are ceramic bearings in e-Motor. They will have to be replaced after a few houndred thousand miles, other motor parts should stay OK.
Firmware will not let you do that.
Not if you never rev it that high. With the old 2 speed you would rev to redline if you were trying to get that claimed 0-60. With the new one speed gearbox you will never get over 10,000RPMS if you never break the speed limit.
I doubt there will be many putting a lot of time on the eMotor at 14K RPMs. You run out of road (or get pulled over) real fast at 120MPH+
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