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Dan Neil: Tesla S: a model citizen

Discussion in 'News' started by stopcrazypp, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Tesla S: a model citizen - Los Angeles Times

    Dan Neil is the first outside the company to drive the Model S prototype.

    Some details:
    - 17 inch screen might not make it (for the ones calling for real buttons this might be good news, it's not as good news for those expecting it)
    - Car is only 90% there outside & 40% there inside
    - The car will not have 440V or the 45 minute charge
    - Quick swap design problematic, still requires thinking
    - Body might be aluminum or steel or both (I'm guessing might not be as light as target)
    - Tesla expects to have own tooling for aluminum body panels
    - Aiming for 0.25 CD, ideally the bottom slopes gradually rear at 7 degree angle
     
  2. iknowdoyou

    iknowdoyou Member

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    Interesting. The 17" not making it would be sour for more than some, I would think.
     
  3. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Well when Tesla is spouting it as if it's a concrete thing, then I would imagine most people would expect the car to be as-is -- especially because a lot of the new buyers probably aren't aware of Tesla's antics with the Roadster.
     
  4. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    I was aware of Tesla's antics in the past and I fell for it hook line and sinker. They are not getting my deposit until they have a concrete car that I can drive and know the prices and options on. Gravely disappointed !! I expected some changes but I expected them to be minor ones not a complete major make over .... now it seems that they are advertising one thing and delivering another. Many people have heard the 7 passenger thing, battery swap thing and the quick charge claims. It seems it will all be down hill from here.... :frown:
     
  5. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    I agree... except I put my money down already :( Now I see why so many people dislike Tesla... well, I guess it's the current CEO that's causing most of the problems.
     
  6. DRM

    DRM Roadster #619

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    I wouldn't blame Elon for this; his job at this point is to drum up support & press for the model-S such that they can get the gov't loans and/or more VC money (or go public were the market better). In that respect he's doing quite well. It is the job of Straubel and others to deliver the technical aspects of the car. Given how groundbreaking many design features are, we shouldn't be suprised if the first MY doesn't include everything we've come to expect in the model-S.

    For my part, I'm waiting for a test drive in something more like a "validation-prototype" before making a down-payment.

    //dan.
     
  7. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    #7 Kevin Harney, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
    I totally blame Elon. Either he needs to talk to his staff and find out what he can in fact claim as reality or he needs to SHUT UP. False advertising may get him something in the near future but later on it will get him nothing but hassles and people calling him out on his LIES!!! And at this point I firmly believe that he is just a pathological liar. I do not believe a single word out of his mouth and I will never put a deposit down until I can see a car and know the prices and options. He has proven to me that he can not be trusted in the slightest. Both with the price changes on the Roadster and the statements about the Model S.

    I sincerely hope that this is part of the unstated reason that Darryl left as a "difference of opinion".

    Just not the way to win people over by deception. VERY BAD on all fronts. :mad:
     
  8. EVnut

    EVnut Darell, the EVnut

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    The worst bit of false advertising for me is the implication that you can have 300 miles or range for the $50k price and 45 minutes of fast charge from a 120V outlet. The wording has been *mildly* changed, but not to the point of outright honesty. :sigh:
     
  9. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    I agree Kevin... when I originally saw all the hate for Elon, I thought it was misplaced because of his personality... but beyond being plain weird, the guy is a big talker, and his words dig the grave if his company. Did he learn NOTHING from the Roadster fiasco? Stop promising what you're not sure you can deliver.

    I can see if they said it will have XYZ and then 10 months down the line something came up and it turns out they couldn't, but them retracting statements so soon means they likely knew the statements were far-fetched or outright false and Elon went ahead and said them anyways.

    An easy fix? Stop talking so arrogantly and be open.

    --"We hope to have a quick-charge capability -- if not in the early models, then in the later ones -- that will allow you to charge in 45 minutes"
    --"We're aiming for the ability to swap batteries quickly -- it's still a work in progress, but that's the goal"

    etc, etc. Instead he speaks in absolutes, and I'm sure his team are watching the interviews and cringing when he makes statements that they KNOW are false or misleading.

    *sigh*

    I'm tempted not to even bother going tonight.
     
  10. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Well what you see will NOT be what you get ...but I have to say it was nice to see it anyway.

    Elon is just a marketing nightmare. I am sure Darryl gets some satisfaction in seeing that printed here :biggrin:
     
  11. Darkstar12

    Darkstar12 Member

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    Stop bashing the future...

    I completely disagree with this thread. Elon's vision and forward-thinking will solidify Tesla as a successful car manufacturer. I read these blogs pretty actively, but rarely post. I suppose it's human nature to be afraid of, or hate, something you don't understand..and it's apparent that some of you suffers from either. It's so easy to disregard the "Big Picture", because it usually requires some research and a broad understanding of it to form an opinion. I look at Tesla Motors as pioneers. They are the only company with enough [email protected] to take on "The Industry", and show them what can and will be done. And to date, Tesla is the only EV company successful to do so. Elon is afraid of nothing. What he tells everyone is what's possible. Elon hasn't guaranteed anything with regards to timetable of options for the Model S. And I AM COMPLETELY CONFIDENT that his promises have, and will continue to come to fruition. So please, think before you write. Understand that Elon has the daunting task of keeping Tesla at the tip of everyone's tongues and pencils. And he does it well. When was the last time anyone of you who responds negatively, put your neck, money and career on the line for the advancement of anything?!?! It's the old saying..."walk a mile in his shoes..."
     
  12. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    And that is your excuse for him to lie his way through it all ?

    I happen to be a LONG time reader and poster on this site. I am just disgusted with the way that Elon handles himself. I think that in the long run he will make enough enemies to get the company killed. I understand that he needs to create hipe for the product and I understand that it could be a GREAT product. And I think that the Roadster is a GREAT accomplishment. But Elon did not CREATE than product. He needs to shut his mouth and hire a good marketing team to do the job. There are tasks that should be handed of to better qualified personnel and this is one of them for him. He is crass and arogant and ilinformed or ignorant about the subjects that he is spouting off about. It is a darn shame that he is too egocentic to see what is best for the company.
     
  13. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    Guys!

    How about we all relax. Opinions duly noted. No need to repeat them ad infinitum.
    This car won't even be out for a couple years. Obviously some things will change by then.

    Let's keep it civil and on topic.
     
  14. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    Doug,

    I completely understand that SOME things might change. However, from this article which sites Elon, JB and Franz it appears that EVERYTHING they have touted to date has in fact changed. This is a BIG deal. When the rest of the press gets a hold of this info the results will be disasterous. Look what it has done here and we are basically supportive of the company and the cars. :eek: They are in for a wild ride. And I do not believe that all press is good press. Creating excitement and hype is one thing but just telling out right lies to create publicity is flat out wrong in my book. This has changed me from a believer in the product to someone that is VERY skeptical. From this point forward they are going to have to prove to me what they are saying in a concrete manner.
     
  15. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    I for one am going to be watching Elon and what he has to say very closely on Letterman tonight.
     
  16. ozman

    ozman Member

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    #16 ozman, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
    Your deposits are refundable as far as I have heard, so don't get too angry. The truth is, it is sad to a degree, but it is also understandable. Tesla at the moment is taking on a near impossible task, and at this very specific moment it is trying very hard to court the enthusiasts, potential customers and the Government for the loan. Without it, who knows what will happen. So driving the hype and pre-orders help prove that they are worthy of the loan and without a doubt that is what is driving the early release of the Model S, and the hype overdrive.

    The 17inch screen is NOT a big deal, it's a tv screen, if that is why you are buying a car mount a laptop or lcd of your own for $500-1000 and be happy. The 45 minute charge, I think will come to fruition, I have read that they are "very close" in their internal testing to perfect it, however it likely will require money and time to make it happen. This is one article... Lets wait and see, perhaps he will stick to the 45 minute charge on Letterman tonight, and perhaps the article is wrong. The battery swap, well "problematic" and "requires thinking" hardly means it won't happen. The whole car and production is problematic and requires thinking.

    Personally I'd wait before putting down a $40k deposit, though a refundable $5k one I would consider (keep in mind I am in Australia lol) until more concrete details, prices and options are evident. That said I don't blame Tesla for pushing forward very quickly on the Model S, and hyping and marketing it to drum up pre-orders in order to make it a reality, and fast. They have still delivered more than most EV companies, but don't forget they are a company working in a very tough environment and market, so caveat emptor, buyer beware. That said, calling them outright liars, and getting so emotional about it is pretty silly.

    They delivered pretty close to what they promised on the Roadster. And pretty close was lightyears ahead of anything else on the market place. Remember most of this stuff goes vaporware. So if they get pretty close with the Model S (and pretty close includes all major promises) it will again be lightyears ahead and a great car. That said, Elon is marketing the car, in the way he does all his products (he markets SpaceX at times in similar ways). You can't blame him for that, it's a tough, competitive marketplace and they are operating on a much smaller budget than their competitors. And at the end of the day who else is doing anything remotely as earth changing as him? So relax a little, they will deliver a great and revolutionary car to the market place (and meet quite likely all major commitments) in a timely fashion, but don't get upset if it doesn't have the 21inch wheels as standard :)
     
  17. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    The point is that changing one or two of these things to a certain degree is OK and can be understood. Minor changes here and there are expected. This is stating that pretty much everything that they have said will be on the car is in question. 7 seats, quick change battery, fast charge, battery swapping, 17" screen with connectivity, etc. These are ALL of the marketing points that they have expoused to this point. They are now ALL under question. I did not and do not expect it to be perfect even for another year or so but I do expect there to be some sort of truth in what they are saying be it ever so minor (the truth that is). My point is statements like We HOPE or we are planning on ... or we are still working on are much more honest and straight forward. I think that you can create desire and hype and demand and still be honest at the same time. Perhaps I am just too old fashioned.
     
  18. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    The short is that I no longer consider Elon to be a reliable source. And since he is CEO of the company that is a pretty sad statement.
     
  19. ozman

    ozman Member

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    #19 ozman, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
    To be honest. Judging by the Roadster, and SpaceX, I am pretty confident they will meet all major promises (perhaps over budget and over the delivery date). I agree and think major stuff like quick charge, battery swap, the 17inch screen (which is however minor if you ask me, and I think there is 0 reason they wouldn't include it if people want it) will all happen. However if you are buying the base model or $50k and expecting to get what you see in the pictures and a 45 minute charge from your home outlet with a delivery date of January 2011 you will be dissapointed, and I'd hope you wouldn't jump into a $50k purchase with such little knowledge if the money meant a lot to you. But that is true of all car companies. I highly doubt you will see them back away from the 45 minute quick charge or the battery swapping though. Their website still shows it, and I bet they still mention it in all appearances. Elon's other projects are evidence of that.

    People got angry when Tesla had to back away from their 250 mile range on the Roadster, but what did they end up DELIVERING? 244 miles. Not bad at all for a startup. Give them/him some credit. He takes on the difficult regularly, I am sure we will see the major promises come to fruition.
     
  20. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

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    #20 Kevin Harney, Apr 29, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2009
    I agree that the screen is not a big deal. I do not really know that much about SpaceX and am not really interested in it so I will concede on that one just because I do not care enough to refute it. But one of the big sales points on the Roadsster is that it does 0-60 in 3.9 seconds. That is a pretty major selling point in my opinion and that has not been delivered on yet. Prices were changed in a major way after people signed up for them and many other sticking points that have been discussed here on this site. I think they have tried to deliver the product that they sold but to date they have not done so. Buying it is fine as long as you know what you are getting. The original numbers that came out when they marketed the Roadster were much more vague. I think they said 0-60 will be around 4 seconds and other things like that before Elon came on to the company. Then things got more concrete and balck and white after Elon came on to the company. Most of those things turned out to be not true as of yet.
     

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