David Noland suggests Model S pedal placement is a safety hazard

[JST]

My question is: If the M3 pedal placement is worse, according to his testing of the 22 cars, then why haven't there been more M3 crashes and a safety recall for their pedal placement? I did a quick Google search and only found a couple of forum posts about pedal placement. Is that because it's a manual car as David suggests? Even in a manual car, you use your right foot for both the brake and go pedals.

It's hard to have a "pedal misapplication" incident in a manual car because if the car starts running away from you, your natural reaction is both feet in--meaning you disengage the clutch and the car stops accelerating.

Still, there are plenty of M3s out there with DSG transmissions and no clutch pedal.

 

[dsm363]

I think he writes these kinds of articles just for attention. A 'this has been an amazing car to own', which may or may not be his opinion, would generate little traffic.

 

[TokyoRush]

Do the brakes really stop working when both pedals are pressed? I am going to try this today, but that doesnt make sense. I could understand the accelerator not being active when the brake pedal is pressed...

Just the accelerator stops working - not the brakes. It does have a nice warning beep and flashes on the screen to tell you not to do it.

 

[AudubonB]

David Nolan's opinions and attitude are one more example of why I am living in the wrong epoch. They differ, phenomenologically, not one whit from the observation that "this hammer is poorly fashioned, in that I can well and truly mash my thumb if I position both in just this fashion".

 

[ckessel]

To me, this is nonsense. I have never once hit both pedals or the wrong one accidentally, and I drove with winter boots for the last several months.

Yes, this is pure BS. I actually tend to drive with my right foot overlapping both the brake and the gas, and brake with the ball of my foot. This is just how I've gotten used to positioning my feet so that I can heel and toe cars with manual transmissions. Even doing that I've never had an issue in the Tesla.

What, exactly, is BS/nonsense? That it happens or that it's a safety hazard?

Because there are certainly a number of people in this forum, me included, that have had it happen multiple times, so it might be worth clarifying unless you want to call out your fellow long time forum members as full of BS/nonsense.

I still hit both pedals on the rare occasion with my very average sized 10 feet. Not sure why it's only in my Tesla and never in a previous car. Just the nature of how I position my feet I guess.

 

[JST]

What, exactly, is BS/nonsense? That it happens or that it's a safety hazard?

Because there are certainly a number of people in this forum, me included, that have had it happen multiple times, so it might be worth clarifying unless you want to call out your fellow long time forum members as full of BS/nonsense.

I still hit both pedals on the rare occasion with my very average sized 10 feet. Not sure why it's only in my Tesla and never in a previous car. Just the nature of how I position my feet I guess.

I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone in the forum. Different cars have different pedal positions. It can take some getting used to. My point is that it isn't a safety hazard, because my experience lines up precisely with what Tesla said--the pedals are positioned no differently than they are in a lot of other cars out there, and once you get used to it, it's fine.

It's especially not a safety issue since there is the motor/brake interlock, meaning that you can't inadvertently overpower the brakes with the motor. I think even that is overkill, and would prefer to be able to (e.g.) left foot brake when needed while still goosing the car with the throttle, but that's less of an issue with a giant family sedan than with a small sports car.

 

[wcalvin]

Fix with Hillhold and Accelerator shutoff when braking

Amazing comments, considering that it was a constructive article.

As Noland points out, it's a software fix. To elaborate a little:

1. Brake Priority: Block acceleration if brake pedal pushed.
2. Hill-hold will take care of the usual reason to press both pedals at once.
3. Provide a switch-off option for drag racers.

Any downside to these?

 

[jbt100]

Seems to me there are a lot of people who have experienced this problem. It wouldn't hurt for Tesla to look into it. I remember in the late 50's car's had a problem with power brakes and maintaining vacuum. It took several years before engineers isolated and improved the vacuum brakes. I'm not sure how Tesla will respond to this but it could be just a rare circumstance or combination of unlikely events. Any engineer worth his salt knows nothing is fool proof and can certainly be improved.

 

[ckessel]

I still hit both pedals on the rare occasion with my very average sized 10 feet. Not sure why it's only in my Tesla and never in a previous car. Just the nature of how I position my feet I guess.

Just occurred to me, I wonder if the difference is I've always owned manuals before. The Tesla is my first automatic. Well, it's not an automatic obviously, but there's no clutch, consequently it'd make sense that my foot/body positioning has changed.

 

[Zythryn]

Amazing comments, considering that it was a constructive article.

As Noland points out, it's a software fix. To elaborate a little:

1. Brake Priority: Block acceleration if brake pedal pushed.
2. Hill-hold will take care of the usual reason to press both pedals at once.
3. Provide a switch-off option for drag racers.

Any downside to these?

It already has brake priority.

 

[Doug_G]

Seems to me there are a lot of people who have experienced this problem. It wouldn't hurt for Tesla to look into it. I remember in the late 50's car's had a problem with power brakes and maintaining vacuum. It took several years before engineers isolated and improved the vacuum brakes. I'm not sure how Tesla will respond to this but it could be just a rare circumstance or combination of unlikely events. Any engineer worth his salt knows nothing is fool proof and can certainly be improved.

The very first accident happened at the very first "Get Amped" test drive even in Fremont, which led to the implementation of the accelerator lock-out.

My feeling is the pedal position could be improved by bringing the brake pedal back as little as 1/4", so your foot feels where it is and you quickly learn how to position properly. Without that feedback I think the "muscle memory" gets lazy after a while and you don't move your foot far enough. I think that would be a proactive improvement.

 

[dsm363]

It already has brake priority.

And now hill hold too with 5.9. So what exactly is the issue then?

- - - Updated - - -

The very first accident happened at the very first "Get Amped" test drive even in Fremont, which led to the implementation of the accelerator lock-out.

My feeling is the pedal position could be improved by bringing the brake pedal back as little as 1/4", so your foot feels where it is and you quickly learn how to position properly. Without that feedback I think the "muscle memory" gets lazy after a while and you don't move your foot far enough. I think that would be a proactive improvement.

Tesla seems to take evidence and make improvements when they can on the fly. If this is something they can do without major redesign and it is an improvement they definitely should do it. That doesn't mean the way it is now is dangerous or a problem to me at least.

 

[mknox]

Because there are certainly a number of people in this forum, me included, that have had it happen multiple times, so it might be worth clarifying unless you want to call out your fellow long time forum members as full of BS/nonsense.

No offense intended. When this idea was first discussed, it was before I had received my car and I actually traveled to a showroom with a pair of shoes and my winter boots to check it out for myself. I was quite concerned. I could tell no difference with shoes or boots against the current cars I owned and others that I could recall driving which led to significant relief. I received my car a year ago and have put 22,000 miles on it, and personally have never had an issue. I've even driven it with snowmobile boots on. I have no explanation as to why some others have issues, other than to suggest perhaps I just got "lucky" in that the Model S pedals are positioned very similarly to the other cars I've owned, which have been predominantly North American models.

 

[Gizmotoy]

The Model S is designed as a driver's car, and as such has close pedal placements. There's a reason it has similar placement to other sporty models of European heritage: they work. Quite selfishly, I'm glad they went with a sporty placement rather than the traditional mass-market American placement. It's interesting to note, though, that pedal adjustment kits to move the pedals closer together are common for many of these vehicles, especially the ones that are fun to drive (like the Camaro).

So it's kind of a war of two preferences: do you want them close together for faster transitions, or far apart so there's no chance of hitting them simultaneously?

As a guess, to the people who have had recurring problems, have you gotten into the habit of letting your right foot sit at something other than 90* relative to the floor? I wonder if that's what the difference is, given a lot of people have chimed in that they have no problems even with big boots.

 

[Denarius]

The Model S is designed as a driver's car, and as such has close pedal placements. There's a reason it has similar placement to other sporty models of European heritage: they work. Quite selfishly, I'm glad they went with a sporty placement rather than the traditional mass-market American placement. It's interesting to note, though, that pedal adjustment kits to move the pedals closer together are common for many of these vehicles, especially the ones that are fun to drive (like the Camaro).

So it's kind of a war of two preferences: do you want them close together for faster transitions, or far apart so there's no chance of hitting them simultaneously?

As a guess, to the people who have had recurring problems, have you gotten into the habit of letting your right foot sit at something other than 90* relative to the floor? I wonder if that's what the difference is, given a lot of people have chimed in that they have no problems even with big boots.

I wonder if those not having issues drove a sports car before the Model S, and those having issues ran more standard vehicles.

 

[Zythryn]

I wonder if those not having issues drove a sports car before the Model S, and those having issues ran more standard vehicles.

Not in my case. I was used to driving a Prius. Although I have driven a wide variety of cars, from SUVs to a Chevy Monza, Olds Cutless, etc

 

[DrComputer]

I'm not sure why there is a huge debate over if the problem exists or not. It definitely does exist. It is a simple problem to fix with some simple pedal re-alignment. Last week I flew to a conference and got a rental car. It was a brand new Hyundia Elantra. I purposely tried to get my foot to press both pedals at the same time and could not do it. The pedals are placed in a way (as in most cars) that you cannot clip the accelerator with the right side of your shoe while pressing the brake... and this is a sub $20K car.

Yes, Tesla can keep trying to fix a hardware problem by tweaking the software. But why not just re-adjust the pedals properly and fix it once and for all?

 

[liuping]

I'm not sure why there is a huge debate over if the problem exists or not. It definitely does exist. It is a simple problem to fix with some simple pedal re-alignment. Last week I flew to a conference and got a rental car. It was a brand new Hyundia Elantra. I purposely tried to get my foot to press both pedals at the same time and could not do it. The pedals are placed in a way (as in most cars) that you cannot clip the accelerator with the right side of your shoe while pressing the brake... and this is a sub $20K car.

Yes, Tesla can keep trying to fix a hardware problem by tweaking the software. But why not just re-adjust the pedals properly and fix it once and for all?

If they move the brake so far over that you cannot possibly touch both, people will complain that it's too far over and you have to move your foot too far to apply the brakes, increasing the braking time.

It does not bother me where it is, but I would not mind it the brake was slightly further to the left. It would not make any difference to me.

I'm not really sure what the different is between Tesla re-designing the brake to be an inch to the left, and people just moving their foot a little more to the left when braking.

 

[JST]

I'm not sure why there is a huge debate over if the problem exists or not. It definitely does exist. It is a simple problem to fix with some simple pedal re-alignment. Last week I flew to a conference and got a rental car. It was a brand new Hyundia Elantra. I purposely tried to get my foot to press both pedals at the same time and could not do it. The pedals are placed in a way (as in most cars) that you cannot clip the accelerator with the right side of your shoe while pressing the brake... and this is a sub $20K car.

Yes, Tesla can keep trying to fix a hardware problem by tweaking the software. But why not just re-adjust the pedals properly and fix it once and for all?

Thing is, clipping the accelerator with the right side of your foot while pressing the brake is exactly what I do, on a daily basis, when I drive my other cars. I do it when I downshift. It's not in any way dangerous to have the car set up this way; in fact, if you couldn't reach both pedals with one foot, you wouldn't be able to downshift properly.

Of course, you don't *need* to have the pedals so close on the Tesla because there is no clutch and thus no need to heel and toe, but the point that I am making is that there is nothing inherently wrong with putting the pedals close together, and no reason for Tesla to change the design.

 

[Zythryn]

I'm not sure why there is a huge debate over if the problem exists or not. It definitely does exist. It is a simple problem to fix with some simple pedal re-alignment. Last week I flew to a conference and got a rental car. It was a brand new Hyundia Elantra. I purposely tried to get my foot to press both pedals at the same time and could not do it. The pedals are placed in a way (as in most cars) that you cannot clip the accelerator with the right side of your shoe while pressing the brake... and this is a sub $20K car.

Yes, Tesla can keep trying to fix a hardware problem by tweaking the software. But why not just re-adjust the pedals properly and fix it once and for all?

I don't argue that some people haven't accidentally pressed both pedals.
My stance is it isn't a problem due to design, but pilot error.

If you feel it is a design issue, work to change the regulations that state the minimum distance between pedals.
Personally, if you slow down the brake time by moving the pedals further apart, I suspect you would have more accidents, not less.