David Noland suggests Model S pedal placement is a safety hazard

[lolachampcar]

I think Giz nailed it and there are just a lot of people coming to MS out of cars with wide pedal placement. It you do not know about close pedals then I can see how you can think they are a problem. If you do know about close pedals, I can understand how you would view this as pilot error.

What I do not subscribe to is the "it is a problem so go fix it" view. It is not a problem for me and I specifically do not want them moved further apart (but then I am just one opinion).

 

[tomas]

I don't argue that some people haven't accidentally pressed both pedals.
My stance is it isn't a problem due to design, but pilot error.

If you feel it is a design issue, work to change the regulations that state the minimum distance between pedals.
Personally, if you slow down the brake time by moving the pedals further apart, I suspect you would have more accidents, not less.

I'm an experienced sports car driver for 4 decades and heel and toe'r. Had no problem with MS for 15 months. That's because 99% of my braking starts with regen, and I only finish the job with disk brakes. A couple of weeks ago, with Chicago pot holes, I've had to do some urgent stops to avoid rim and suspension damage. It is easy to accidentally catch some accelerator pedal while braking with boots on. There are instances where brake does not override accelerator, and with the power of the MS engine, you can find yourself moving when you were intending to stop. Solution is not to move pedals further apart, but to simply raise the brake a bit. In another thread, there was some evidence that Tesla has actually done this with later cars. It is also my theory that this gets worse over time as braking system loosens up and gets spongier… I'm in at SC tomorrow to have them look at this and see if a fluid refresh improves. Please don't ridicule people reporting this, it is real.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

I have a (new) theory for why the pedals were spaced this way by Tesla. It's because of the angle of the foot to the leg which is much more acute than it is in most cars because of the battery pack under the floor. Notice how adults who sit in the back remark on the angle of their thighs to the horizontal because of the raised floor. Keeping the pedals spaced closer gives the "clenched" foot a better transition from pedal to pedal than otherwise.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I completely agree with Dr Computer. I've come close on numerous occasions to bumping something for exactly the reasons he's articulated so well. Fortunately after nearly 1 1/2 years I've pretty much trained myself to gong overboard in avoiding this situation. And unfortunately not at all surprised by his response from Jerome.

I completely agree with Jerome and find David Noland's article to be utter nonsense. The man had made the same mistake three times before, you'd think he would start paying attention after the first time. He blames the car's design for "inducing" him to press both pedals at once, I guess the car continues to "induce" him because he keeps doing it. Not only that, but he criticizes the vehicle design for not warning you - something the car clearly does if you are paying any attention to the car or how you are driving.

Two words: individual responsibility. Don't drive your Model S (or any car, for that matter) while wearing snow shoes or mukluks, and if you do, at least pay attention to what your clown feet are doing.

 

[strider]

Is it possible that the difference in stopping power/distance is because if you hit both pedals it cuts power but does NOT regen whereas if you only hit the brake you get friction brakes AND regen?

I've never heard the chime or caught the wrong pedal but my father did when he was test driving. And he's had manual xmission cars his entire life. So Idk. But funny story... when I was a kid he borrowed my (auto xmission) truck to pick up some garden stuff. He backs out of the driveway and heads down the road. All of a sudden I hear tires screeching (no ABS on this truck) and he has come to a dead stop with all 4 wheels locked up and a sheepish look on his face. I run over and he tells me he went to hit the clutch w/ his left foot out of habit and caught the extra wide brake pedal instead.

 

[JohnQ]

I completely agree with Jerome and find David Noland's article to be utter nonsense. The man had made the same mistake three times before, you'd think he would start paying attention after the first time. He blames the car's design for "inducing" him to press both pedals at once, I guess the car continues to "induce" him because he keeps doing it. Not only that, but he criticizes the vehicle design for not warning you - something the car clearly does if you are paying any attention to the car or how you are driving.

Two words: individual responsibility. Don't drive your Model S (or any car, for that matter) while wearing snow shoes or mukluks, and if you do, at least pay attention to what your clown feet are doing.

While I agree that there isn't a safety issue per se, David rightly points out that design decisions have an impact on how sensitive to errors a vehicle is. And he does take responsibility for what happened. The question is whether the pedal placement is appropriate for the vehicle mission ... quick response vs. slower response (i.e., feet move further to hit pedal). Reasonable people will disagree because they can't agree on the vehicle mission.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I'm not sure why there is a huge debate over if the problem exists or not. It definitely does exist. It is a simple problem to fix with some simple pedal re-alignment. Last week I flew to a conference and got a rental car. It was a brand new Hyundia Elantra. I purposely tried to get my foot to press both pedals at the same time and could not do it. The pedals are placed in a way (as in most cars) that you cannot clip the accelerator with the right side of your shoe while pressing the brake... and this is a sub $20K car.

Yes, Tesla can keep trying to fix a hardware problem by tweaking the software. But why not just re-adjust the pedals properly and fix it once and for all?

Because as others have said, it's not a problem in the first place. The driver of a $20,000 Hyundai Elantra is not a performance enthusiast and the car is not designed with pedal placement like what you find in performance cars. Perhaps you can ask Tesla, after they move your pedals, to also hobble your car's performance to better match that of the Hyundai Elantra. After all, that's what the Elantra's pedal placement was designed for.

Just because you are having an issue with pedal placement doesn't mean there is a "hardware problem". In fact, maybe Tesla should just make the Model S into an Elantra because then you literally don't have to think about anything. All the controls are where you expect them, the doors open how you expect, the seats work how you want... so there you go. There is always a learning curve and adjustment that takes place when you acquire a new vehicle. LEARN ABOUT YOUR CAR! If your pedals are closer than in your Hyundai Elantra, then take extra care and pay attention. Just because something is different does not make it wrong. It just means that you have to learn a new way, much in the same way that you've already learned a new way to drive this car, eschew knobs for touch screen controls, etc. You've adjusted to other things, yet none of those other things were "hardware problems".

My last car was a Prius and probably had widely spaced brake and accelerator pedal. I had absolutely no trouble adjusting to the Model S, none whatsoever. In fact, I am in awe of the pedal placement because it allows me to pivot my foot on my heal to either touch the brake or go pedal. I couldn't do that in my Prius and that car always caused me leg strain because I had to move my whole leg to switch from brake to accelerator. Model S design is superior by far.

 

[teslasguy]

Wow, I must say that as a long time TMC member and early P85 owner I'm surprised and disappointed in the amount of vitriol I'm seeing in posts anymore. As I said earlier this was an early on, real issue for me. A number if close calls before I got myself trained to avoid the problem. For those questioning the driver skills of those with this experience I used to do a lot of autocrossing in my Corvette Z06, Porsche Boxster S, Evo and other great cars. I also used to heel/toe drive. However I never had this unnerving experience with any other car I owned. While I'm not shouting for Tesla to stop everything and "fix" this I do agree that raising the brake pedal a bit might help a lot. I would also tend to agree that this issue (along with knee hitting the window button constantly) may well have something to do with our body makeup and sitting posture. I'm only 5'8" and size 10 shoes. If just like to see a little more openness to the idea that this has been (still is) an issue for some on here. I also certainly acknowledge that it sounds like for most it's not an issue at all.

 

[wcalvin]

While the same issue may be found in many cars, the difference with Tesla is that it might be fixed over-the-air some night with a software update.

 

[Chipper]

While the same issue may be found in many cars, the difference with Tesla is that it might be fixed over-the-air some night with a software update.

I am not sure they can move pedals with a software update.

 

[Doug_G]

It is also my theory that this gets worse over time as braking system loosens up and gets spongier… I'm in at SC tomorrow to have them look at this and see if a fluid refresh improves. Please don't ridicule people reporting this, it is real.

It's been my experience that the brake pedal is spongier than it was at first. I have a suspicion that the less frequent use means the brake fluid never gets warmed up, and this might be having an impact.

I'm not just basing this on Model S. After two years my Roadster's brake fluid looked like coca-cola. I had to specifically request a brake fluid flush, because IIRC service said it wasn't supposed to be done until the fourth year. However you could see with the naked eye that the brake fluid was done, and flushing it made a significant improvement in the brake feel.

 

[lolachampcar]

I'll second the DG brake fluid observation and, now that Doug has pointed it out, keep an eye out for the issue and stay on top of any subtle changes.

With respect to the type and nature of reactions about pedal placement, I think a lot of it is not coming from "the pedals in MS are different and are causing some people an issue" but the "and it is a huge safety problem that Tesla needs to fix". Teslaguy, my negative reaction was to the idea that there is a fundamental design flaw with pedal placement. I've got 13s, have driven a lot of cars and have routinely needed to figure out what I am driving and why I'm having an issue so that I can correct MY problem. The difficulty for me is starting from the it's the car's fault perspective.

I can appreciate an open discussion about pedal placement but putting out there on a blog (or whatever the OP was pointing to) with a slant towards it being a car problem after talking about big feet, boots, etc. just seems disingenuous.

 

[joefee]

My cross-post from TM forum:

I have a Sig Performance, a small foot and yes I'm a senior citizen! I posted this issue about a year ago (don't remember which forum---memory--- the first thing to go). I was approaching a automated toll booth and took my foot off the accelerator to slow down then pressed (what I thought was the break) and blew right past the toll booth. No one was in front of me but the toll booth camera captured my plate and I got a ticket in the mail. I retold this story and they let me off the hook on the ticket. I mentioned the pedal placement issue to my service center but never filed a complaint because I was not sure if it was a design issue or operator error. Since that time I have been driving with my shoe off and have not had this problem now that I "feel" the pedals. I hope Theresa is correct and the pedals can be adjusted so I can put my shoes back on!

 

[dsm363]

Don't these kinds of accidents where someone pushes the wrong pedal happen on other cars as well? Do we know it is worse on the Model S?

 

[Doug_G]

Just FYI, in many jurisdictions (e.g. here) it is illegal to drive without shoes on. Get some ballet slippers or something...

 

[tomas]

Don't these kinds of accidents where someone pushes the wrong pedal happen on other cars as well? Do we know it is worse on the Model S?

I was a total doubter on this until I experienced. It's not wrong pedal, it's catching a bit of accel whilst braking. I know that simultaneous brake and accelerator is supposed to squelch the juice, but if I apply the brake and at same time catch some accelerator, they fight with each other and car keeps going vs. stopping. I know it's just a matter of reaction time and rolling foot to fix, but I wouldn't be braking hard unless I need to stop. As I said in earlier post, first experienced this after 15 months of owning, I'm not driving different, and I'm a very experienced sports car driver, occasional racer, heel and toe… etc. Sloppy eater, sloppy drunk, but not a sloppy braker! My theory is I need new brake fluid so braking doesn't put me in accelerator territory. I'm at SC to address tomorrow, and I'll post what we come up with.

 

[NoMoGas]

I saw this article today http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1091002_life-with-tesla-model-s-is-p...
I had the same problem with a Miata conversion to electric. My wife will not drive my Miata now becouse she accidently pushed the accelerator and the brake at the same time. An electric car will easily overcome any braking and move you forward as it did with my wife right through an intersection. fortunately there was no traffic but it scared her to the point she will not drive the car now. I think it would be wise for Tesla to fix this problem immediately as we all know what happened to Toyota with the accelerator problem. I ended up moving the accelerator more to the right to solve the problem and it hasn't happened since but my wife won't move at all on driving the car.
I also wonder if anyone else has this problem with there Tesla as I'm a future buyer but not if this is going to be a problem.:scared:

The car yells at you

 

[Canuck]

Just FYI, in many jurisdictions (e.g. here) it is illegal to drive without shoes on. Get some ballet slippers or something...

No where in the Ontario Highway Traffic Act does it say driving barefoot is illegal. In fact:

It is legal throughout the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom to drive barefoot.[SUP][63][/SUP][SUP][64][/SUP][SUP][65][/SUP]

 

[strider]

I'm not just basing this on Model S. After two years my Roadster's brake fluid looked like coca-cola. I had to specifically request a brake fluid flush, because IIRC service said it wasn't supposed to be done until the fourth year. However you could see with the naked eye that the brake fluid was done, and flushing it made a significant improvement in the brake feel.

Weird, on my 2.5 it's done every 2 years as part of annual service - maybe they changed the policy at your and other's urging? I'll take note at our MS's second annual.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Thought I'll take a couple of selfies, of my foot:

- on the accelerator

- on the brake pedal

Hmm, I'm indeed dangerously close to slipping off the edge of the brake pedal with my size 11.5 shoes. Hasn't happened but, is likely if I'm not careful.