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DC charging on type 2 mode 3?

Discussion in 'Europe' started by matbl, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Hi

    I've been trying to understand the type 2 mode x thing. Model S have a plug that's obviously compatible with type 2 modes 1,2 and 3. And it does DC supercharging with this.
    Can it do DC charging from non-supercharger type 2 mode 3? Limited to 70 KW of course. Does such charging stations exist? Or is every type 2 station AC only at the moment? Limiting the power to 22 (or 11) KW?
     
  2. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    #2 J-Philipp, Sep 9, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
    Hej!

    cache_2412245681.jpg

    DC = Mode 4.

    The Model S has a specific connector, featuring :

    - compatibility with Mennekes type 2, mode 3 : AC power up to 11 kW (single charger) or 22 kW (dual chargers) ;
    - Supercharging at 120 kW, DC.

    For Europe, to my knowledge, no official announcement about Chademo (DC 50 kW) support (or any other DC mode), has been made by Tesla.
     
  3. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Hmm..
    Ok. I got confused by the following picture.
    It's type 2 DC-mid (mode4?) that I'm asking for. Although DC-low would also be alot more than 22 KW.

    RTEmagicC_ea655cf3c1_02.jpg
     
  4. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Yes, I'm thinking about that as well.

    I know the Abb's Terra QuickChargers support this, so I'm wondering if Model S indeed supports it.
     
  5. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Does it? I couldn't find one with type 2 connector at all. Only chademo and ccs.
     
  6. J-Philipp

    J-Philipp Member

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    I'm also getting confused then...

    Is there a real-world application of this DC-Mid mode (apart from Tesla enhanced supercharging mode) ? Is there a car compatible with this ? Seems kind of exotic configuration...
     
  7. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Indeed, you are right. The Terra's only support CHAdeMO, CCS or Type 2 AC.
     
  8. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Since Tesla supercharges with a type 2 connector without the extra dc-high pins, it should be able to charge from dc-mid as well if Tesla has allowed it.

    I don't know. I think BMW i3 has a Type 2 connector and can do at least mode 2,3 and 4. It has DC charging according to a table on the uk bmw i3 website and the power is 50 [email protected] but if it needs the DC-high plug for it or if it can do it from a DC-mid plug is unclear. From the pictures I've seen, a dc-high (combo?) plug can at least fit...
     
  9. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    #9 miimura, Mar 5, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
    To clarify what "Mode" means, see Wikipedia

    It would be nice if other automakers and charge equipment providers implemented DC-Mid, but I don't think it will ever happen. It will probably just be one of those things that is written in the standards that just gets ignored. Until somebody else uses it, Tesla need not worry about being compatible to it. They clearly did their own thing with the EU Superchargers.
     
  10. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    There is one big advantage if the charger manufacturers decide to support this mode: that it lets Tesla owners do DC charging using other standardized chargers without using an adapter.

    Straubel was put on recording saying that protocol-wise, Tesla was 100% compatible with SAE Combo (although not physically).
     
  11. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Yes. So hopefully when there's a lot of Euro CCS stations with DC-capability, Tesla will make an adapter. Unless VW, BMW and others totally fail with electric cars, there will be lots of CCS stations.
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Still on my todo list.

    Go to a CCS charger (can be found here) and only connect PE, PP and CP and see what happens.

    IF that works it's probably just a matter of hooking up the + and - and have the Model S charge at ~70kW (380V @ 125A).
     
  13. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Will be interesting to hear your results.
    Is the data protocol on those lines? Not on the power lines? I think it's a kind of data over power line protocol. I researched it but cant remember right now.
     
  14. matbl

    matbl Member

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    Any more thoughts on this?
    I just found out that some new charger stations popping up here in Sweden as well have CCS and Chademo only (no type2 AC).
    But be aware that if the negotiation goes ok, the CCS charger's + and - will go live!
     
  15. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    No, I'm on vacation now and I haven't found the time to do this yet.

    I have to order some components as well to do this test, so don't expect it very soon.
     
  16. arg

    arg Member

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    Confusingly, it is the same modulation scheme/lower layer protocol as is commonly used for "ethernet over home power wiring" - the "Homeplug"/GreenPHY system.

    However, in this application the modulated signal is carried on the CP/PE wires rather than the high-current wiring.

    See here (just the abstract on this page, not the paper you have to buy) for confirmation: http://papers.sae.org/2013-01-1188/


    Among the negotiated parameters is the EVSESupportedEnergyTransferType, which appears to specify which pins of the connector the power is applied on, so you would expect the negotiation to fail with current software in the Model S and an EVSE that only supports the 'extended' pins on the connector.
     
  17. matbl

    matbl Member

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    So maybe some simple logic or com cpu is needed as well.
    I assume you are familiar with Welcome to the OpenV2G project ?
    And http://www.sgstandard.org/download.asp?filename=69_216e_CDV.pdf
     
  18. arg

    arg Member

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    Well, if trying to make a CCS extended-pins to CCS core-pins adaptor, you would need to intercept the whole protocol exchange and fake up these parameters (ie. you would need two greenphy PHY chips as well as your micro). And Tesla will probably come out with their own adapter in due course which would be much simpler (as they can tweak the car software to suit).

    I think this stuff is more interesting just to get extra data out of the car when doing AC charging (if Tesla have bothered to implement it...), or possibly for a DIY CHAdeMO adapter.

    No, I hadn't seen that, thank you. I was commenting based on SAE J2847-2.

    Question now is where to find affordable hardware to run it on.

    Unfortunately that link seems to be dead.
     
  19. VolkerP

    VolkerP EU Model S P-37

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    Tesla is on record saying that their DC charging protocol is fully compliant with CCS charging. Some folks in the knowing concluded from that, that a CCS adapter would just be wiring through and mechanically matching pins. Given the speed at which charging protocols evolve, I guess DC mid uses the same as CCS, no?

    I would install a Tesla-supplied, communications enabled wallbox in a minute! No more hassles setting up Wifi, just connect the existing ethernet cable in the garage to the wallbox.
     
  20. arg

    arg Member

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    The protocol is universal across all the plug types, and indeed across AC as well as DC (though implementing it is optional for the AC case of course).

    However, the point I was making is that the protocol calls for the EVSE to announce the EVSESupportedEnergyTransferType - a list of options, covering AC and/or DC and which plug pins - and the car then responds with EVRequestedEnergyTransferType to say which it wants. So it's fairly unlikely that current Tesla software will accept an EVSE that only offers DC on the extended pins: it wouldn't be expected to work, and potentially sets up an unsafe condition, so the software should reject it. Tesla might have implemented support for standard chargers that offer DC on the 'core pins', but on the other hand might equally have (deliberately or accidentally) put in something that makes it only work with Superchargers. When/if they produce an adapter for the extended pins, the car software will need to change (and it seems to me that the car needs some way to tell that the adapter is present, though the adapter would be in all other respects passive).

    So, to make such an adapter without any assistance from Tesla, even in the best case (if Tesla already supports DC on the core pins - 'DC mid'), the adapter would need to intercept the comms between car and EVSE, modifying the EVSE's offer of DC on the extended pins to instead offer DC on the core pins - so quite a lot more tricky for a 3rd-party adapter than for Tesla to do it themselves. On the other hand, something like a CHAdeMO adapter is equally hard for Tesla or for a 3rd party.

    (all of the above based on reading J1772/J2847 - I really ought to look at the ISO/IEC versions too, although J2847 does mention both Type1 and Type2 connectors).
     

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