Debunking Audi's ‘sustained power beats top power’

[Leafdriver333]

Which is $1 + 28 cents per kWh. It seems they've decided to make the price per kWh the same as Tesla's nation Supercharger average, but then they add on a dollar. Adding on a dollar doesn't sound like much, but if your "fill up" is 40 kWh, the $1 is about 9% of the $11.20 kWh charge, or if you just need half that amount of charge the $1 is 18%.

That reminds me.
I went to Best Buy to get Earphones today.
Ordering Online and doing a Store Pick up price was $19.99 but I didn't order ahead because I was already leaving the house.
When I went to the store, they were marked $20.99.
$1 higher!
I did quick math. I pay $0.08/kwh. The store was 8 miles away. I get 4 miles / kwh.
So 2 kwh x $0.08 = $0.16.
For $1, I could make the trip 3 times back and forth!
So I walked up to the customer service desk and explained there was price discrepancy, and the guy willingly sold it for $19.99.

 

[SageBrush]

However, there is an expectation that Audi will cut a deal with EA on behalf of its customers. Remember that EA is VW money so EA has every incentive to promote VW brands, at least within whatever constraints allowed by the EPA consent decree.

Moreover, now that it is known that the e-tron is an energy hog the obvious step by Audi is to subsidize charging costs at the EA stations.

 

[Leafdriver333]

However, there is an expectation that Audi will cut a deal with EA on behalf of its customers. Remember that EA is VW money so EA has every incentive to promote VW brands, at least within the whatever constraints allowed by the EPA consent decree.

If the eTron can travel only 240 miles, lowly VW EV's will have shorter ranges.
It will be like taking a Leaf on a road trip.

 

[SageBrush]

If the eTron can travel only 240 miles

Quite a bit worse, actually.

206 EPA miles
20 -- 80% charge
Inclement weather ?
Driving speeds over 65 mph ?

Better have your ear plugs handy because the howling is about to begin. It could not happen to a more deserving company ... unless it was GM.

 

[Eno Deb]

Quite a bit worse, actually.

206 EPA miles
20 -- 80% charge
Inclement weather ?
Driving speeds over 65 mph ?

Better have your ear plugs handy because the howling is about to begin. It could not happen to a more deserving company ... unless it was GM.

In real-world testing in Europe the Audi got around 380km (~236mi) of range in mixed driving (see e.g. here). For comparison, the Model X 100 got 428km (~266mi) in the same test. Interestingly they observed that the Tesla is more efficient at highway speeds, while the Audi is a little more efficient in city driving (they theorize that this is caused by the stronger regen capability of the Audi). They also suggest that the upcoming sportback version of the Audi will have better highway efficiency due to better aerodynamics. As far as temperature is concerned, Bjoern Nyland got 205mi of range in freezing cold winter. Regarding the charging, don't forget that the Audi maintains over 75kW up to well over 90% (and you can charge it to 100% without concern due to the bigger top-end buffer).

 

[Leafdriver333]

To me, city range doesn't really matter because I can charge every night if needed.
But my 240 mile range becomes important when I am traveling long distances via freeways at 75-85 mph.
For my area, Washington and Oregon, I am fine with where the superchargers are located. I can reach them with no problem.

 

[sreams]

In real-world testing in Europe the Audi got around 380km (~236mi) of range in mixed driving (see e.g. here). For comparison, the Model X 100 got 428km (~266mi) in the same test. Interestingly they observed that the Tesla is more efficient at highway speeds, while the Audi is a little more efficient in city driving (they theorize that this is caused by the stronger regen capability of the Audi). They also suggest that the upcoming sportback version of the Audi will have better highway efficiency due to better aerodynamics. As far as temperature is concerned, Bjoern Nyland got 205mi of range in freezing cold winter. Regarding the charging, don't forget that the Audi maintains over 75kW up to well over 90% (and you can charge it to 100% without concern due to the bigger top-end buffer).

This also suggests that the Model X is more efficient in circumstances where fast charging is actually needed. For local travel (city driving), you'd slow charge at night.

 

[Eno Deb]

This also suggests that the Model X is more efficient in circumstances where fast charging is actually needed. For local travel (city driving), you'd slow charge at night.

Yes, but I suspect that in practice the Audi's range will be perfectly fine for most people, and charge times will be comparable to the big Model X overall (because the faster charging will make up for the lower highway efficiency). Of course none of them comes close to the efficiency king (non-performance LR Model 3).

 

[SageBrush]

They also suggest that the upcoming sportback version of the Audi will have better highway efficiency due to better aerodynamics.

They have a long way to go, and the e-tron drivetrain itself is a major source of inefficiency.

Audi has become a textbook example of why just throwing a bigger battery into an EV is at best a partial solution. Overall energy economy has too many secondary effects, long distance driving (and the network required to support it) chief among them. Not to mention cost.

 

[FelixtheCat]

Electrek did an article about a year ago on expected battery life based on data gathered to date, both for Tesla and Nissan. https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ The title was "Tesla battery degradation at less than 10% after over 160,000 miles, according to latest data"
Their conclusion:
Battery degradation is often a big concern for new electric vehicle buyers. To a certain degree, the Nissan Leaf might be to blame since it had a lot of issues in that regard, which is why Nissan has a much more comprehensive battery capacity warranty now. A recent study shows that with the original 24 kWh pack loses about 20% of their capacity over 5 years and Nissan’s more recent 30 kWh battery pack loses capacity more quickly than the older pack.
But Tesla’s vehicles arguably have a much more advanced battery thermal management system than the Leaf and data from early Model S vehicles has been really encouraging as we can see above. As for anecdotal data, my own Model S, which is one of the first 2,000 vehicles ever made, only lost about 6% capacity over 5 years.

 

[Eno Deb]

They have a long way to go, and the e-tron drivetrain itself is a major source of inefficiency.

The article actually questions the latter, saying that they both use the same kind of motors etc. and that the more traditional SUV shape (resulting in a higher drag coefficent) of the Audi is the main culprit, which would be supported by the slightly superior efficiency of the Audi in city driving. For the record, I don't have an opinion either way because I don't know enough about the technical details of the vehicles.

 

[SageBrush]

I don't have an opinion either way because I don't know enough about the technical details of the vehicles.

I started from EPA Wh/mile for highway driving and subtracted the Aero and road* contributions. The remainder is much higher for the Audi than the Tesla Model 3.

A x-check would be to look at friction coefficients used by the EPA dyno. That is a best fit polynomial for a coast down test but the 2nd order term is presumably Aero.

* Same RR presumed of 0.009

 

[Jeff N]

Not sure I understand your statement, but I think the typical EA rollout includes primarily 150kW units, with one at 350kW and one that also supports CHAdeMO. So a four stall station will have 1x 350kw CCS, 2x 150kW CCS, and 1x 150kW CCS/CHAdeMO. Sites with more stations just increase the 150kW stall quantity.

There are a few 3 stall EA sites but many are 4 stalls and certainly some with 10 or more.

EA has two types of DC charging sites.

Community or metro sites are meant for local charging (sort of like Tesla Urban Superchargers). EA metro sites in Cycle 1, ending on June 30, have from 3 to 6 charging spaces and in Cycle 2 will have up to 10 spaces. A large majority of metro sites (very roughly 70%) will be 150 kW chargers but around a third of them will be 50 kW. In Cycle 1 there will be roughly 180 metro sites.

The average metro site has around 4 spaces in Cycle 1 and 5 spaces in Cycle 2.

Highway sites are meant for inter-city or long-distance driving. Each site has between 4 and 10 charging spaces although a few may have more than 10. All highway site charging spaces are capable of 150 kW with two them capable of 350 kW. One of the 150 kW units will have a CHAdeMO cable.

An average highway site has 5 charging spaces but, in reality, they seem to be installed with even numbers of spaces. Many are 4 spaces now (like many early Supercharger sites) with 6, 8, or 10 spaces at highway sites closer to urban areas.

By the end of this year, all 484 or so Cycle 1 sites (~300 highway, ~184 metro) are supposed to be fully operational perhaps along with a few Cycle 2 sites.

Today, Tesla has about 640 Supercharger sites in the US. Maybe 700+ by the end of this year? Tesla sites average around 9 charging spaces per site. However, there are far more Tesla’s in the road and being used for long-distance driving than are CCS cars (or 150+ mile CHAdeMO).

Seattle to Chicago is going to suck based on this map.

A quick approximation check on Google maps indicates that an EA trip from Seattle to Chicago might take about 200 miles longer or about 10% longer than a trip using Tesla Superchargers due to Tesla having more northern latitude route choices.

150 kW = 2.5 kWh a minute. Math is hard

IIRC EA plans to charge tiered rates by kW. I think the second tier at 70 cents a minute starts at 150 kW
So $1 + 70 cents per 2.5 kWh

..... assuming you charge for only 1 minute and assuming you don’t join the $4 per month “Pass +” subscription plan that eliminates the $1 session fee and also lowers the tiered prices somewhat.

However, there is an expectation that Audi will cut a deal with EA on behalf of its customers. Remember that EA is VW money so EA has every incentive to promote VW brands, at least within whatever constraints allowed by the EPA consent decree.

EA has already cut a deal with Audi and Porsche.

According to my article:

Electrify America shows new mobile app, reveals new pricing plans

Each new Audi e-tron will get 1,000 kWh of charging during the first four years of use. Porsche Taycan owners will get unlimited 30-minute charging sessions for the first three years. Contracts with additional automakers are expected to be announced in coming weeks.

 

[Zoomit]

All highway site charging spaces are capable of 150 kW with two them capable of 350 kW.

All excellent info Jeff, thank you. Can you verify this statement that all highway sites will have at least 2 350kW stalls?

So a 4-stall EA highway site would have 2x 350kw CCS, 1x 150kW CCS and 1x 150kW CCS/50+kW CHAdeMO? If so, a 4-stall EA site would be capable of 1 MW output, like a 4-stall V3 Supercharger site.

 

[SageBrush]

..... assuming you charge for only 1 minute and assuming you don’t join the $4 per month “Pass +” subscription plan that eliminates the $1 session fee and also lowers the tiered prices somewhat.

I was mistaken about the tier: 150 kW is the 3rd tier which has been reported to cost $0.9 - $1 a minute

So ...
in an E-tron, 2.5 kWh = 5.43 EPA miles for 90 - 100 cents if the monthly subscription is purchased after the free 1000 kWh per year (= ~ 2200 e-tron EPA miles) allowance is used. I'll call it 20 cents a mile ... just in case someone drives closer to 70 mph.

Are you tempted ?

 

[chronopc]

Tesla sites average around 9 charging spaces per site.

Is it really that low of an average? I'm in CA so I can't even remember the last time I went to a SC that had less than 10. Kettleman City has 40 stalls.

 

[miimura]

All excellent info Jeff, thank you. Can you verify this statement that all highway sites will have at least 2 350kW stalls?

So a 4-stall EA highway site would have 2x 350kw CCS, 1x 150kW CCS and 1x 150kW CCS/50+kW CHAdeMO? If so, a 4-stall EA site would be capable of 1 MW output, like a 4-stall V3 Supercharger site.

Yes, but given real cars, the site would be very unlikely to exceed 700kW. If figure the 350kW stalls will not exceed 250kW and the 150kW stalls will typically draw only 100kW. If they are smart, they will equip the sites with 1,500 to 2,500 kVA transformers so that they have room to expand. Utility transformers this large can handle periods of draw exceeding their nameplate.

 

[Jeff N]

All excellent info Jeff, thank you. Can you verify this statement that all highway sites will have at least 2 350kW stalls?

It seems to be the general intent to have two 350 kW charging spaces at each highway site and this has been the case at every highway site that I have seen around the country so far, even in rural areas. It might be the case that a few highway sites are 150 kW only due to site power limitations but I’m unaware of any.

Is it really that low of an average? I'm in CA so I can't even remember the last time I went to a SC that had less than 10. Kettleman City has 40 stalls.

According to supercharge.info, which is generally current (sorry...) and reliable, there are now 642 open Supercharger sites in the US. I’m not sure exactly how many charging spaces there are right now but based on previous numbers I think it’s around 6,000. That works out to 9.3 stalls per site on average in the US.

There are still lots of rural sites around the country with 4 or 6 stalls.

Today there are about 135 open Superchargers in California. Today there are only around a dozen EA sites open in California but there are supposed to be around 160 open by the end of the year.

 

[chronopc]

It seems to be the general intent to have two 350 kW charging spaces at each highway site and this has been the case at every highway site that I have seen around the country so far, even in rural areas. It might be the case that a few highway sites are 150 kW only due to site power limitations but I’m unaware of any.


According to supercharge.info, which is generally current (sorry...) and reliable, there are now 642 open Supercharger sites in the US. I’m not sure exactly how many charging spaces there are right now but based on previous numbers I think it’s around 6,000. That works out to 9.3 stalls per site on average in the US.

There are still lots of rural sites around the country with 4 or 6 stalls.

Today there are about 135 open Superchargers in California. Today there are only around a dozen EA sites open in California but there are supposed to be around 160 open by the end of the year.

That makes sense. I know CA is not a good representation of the entire SC network.

 

[lolder]

Saw a dealer displayed e-Tron at a National Drive Electric Week event in Ft. Myers, FL yesterday. With my Tesla cap on I told the attending lady it was a very nice looking car but that the "Fit and Finish" was too good. It got a laugh out of her. 2/3 of the 50 or so cars were Teslas.