Debunking Audi's ‘sustained power beats top power’

[XmUrF]

Look again at the chart. Same car, compared on different charging schemes

Charging times for V2 are somewhat misleading. The cap there was about 120kw and if we judge by this video

the max rate was sustained from roughly 8% up to 40%. Obviously this was not optimal. According to the chart from V3 Model 3 can be charged with over 120kw from 8% up to almost 60%.

If Tesla rollouts the V3 charging profile like demoed, the Model 3 charging time from 0-80% will not be 40min. It will be 28 minutes, see previous post.

I think 28min will be charging from 20-80%, not 0-80%.

 

[SageBrush]

if we judge by this video

Don't
v2 was bumped up to 150 kW with software 2019.12.1
That is why the cleanTechnica article labeled the test V2 150 kW

 

[GregD60]

By end of year there should be 2015 Tesla SC coverage. It is coming.

Maybe, but I don't think it's coming that fast. I found a screen capture from 3/3/2016 for Superchargers. Do you really think that there will be a network of 120 kWh or higher chargers for the Etron by the end of the year that is remotely close to this? Remember, it's not just how many stations there are, but where they're located. Will a cross country trip really be practical in an Etron any time soon?

 

[SageBrush]

Except that you are going with the very large assumption that most people want to sit around waiting for a 0-80% charge. The way I and many others drive our EVs on long trips, Tesla's method is faster (even if only considering kWh added).

This is exactly the point that our debate opponents refuse to consider because it does not fit their argument.
For the model 3 LR the average power during a 10 - 60% SoC charge on V3 is ~ 175 kW.

I leave it to them to decide if 175 > 150.
Judging by the days this poor thread has gone on, that is not a trivial question.

 

[GregD60]

A limited amount, but growing very rapidly. The Electrify America charger stations being rolled typically have 4-8 chargers and most are 150kW with one at 350kW. Technically to get the fastest charge an e-tron driver would want to use the 350kW charger but the difference with using a 150kW unit would be measured in tens of seconds not minutes.

According to this, from @Jeff N, "At least 484 sites with over 2,000 charging dispensers are planned to be open by the end of 2019." That's for EA only so doesn't include other networks now installing 150-175kW charging units. As a comparison, I see 718 Supercharger sites open now in North America according to Supercharge.info/charts.

Edit: according the EA map, they have 180 sites open now, so that's probably at least 700 stalls that can do 150kW.

If the electric cars are going to be like the Etron or iPace with a max of 200 to 230 miles of range, they're going to need more charging stations than Tesla needs.

Take an Etron with 204 miles range. You're not going to want to charge it up to over 80% due to the amount of time it takes to charge that last 20%. Also, you're really going to want to make sure you have a minimum 30 miles of extra range to ensure that you can make it to the next charger, so you don't want to run the battery down below 15%. This makes the practical usable range of the Etron 80-15 or 65% of 204 miles, which is 133 miles. Therefore, the maximum distance you'd want to have Etron charging stations from each other is 133 miles. In reality, you're probably going to need at least a 30% overlap to cover high discharge circumstances like very cold weather, high headwinds, etc. This means that Etron charging stations should be placed every 94 miles or less. That's an awful lot of charging stations.

Now do the same comparison using a Model 3 SR+ with a 240 mile range. 80% of 240 is 192 miles minus 30 miles minimum excess, which results in 160 miles max between chargers. Toss in the 30% overlap figure, and we're down to charging stations every 112 miles or less. This means that Tesla can have a similar level of coverage with 20% less stations than Audi with its Etron.

 

[SageBrush]

SageBrush is correct in his triangle example. However I don't think that just by eyeballing the chart he can make the case that both triangles are equal although I admit he may be right.

Just use the linear portion of the V3 charge curve from a SoC of ~ 25% (I don't have the graph in from of me) and set the bases to be equal. You have the power

 

[Eno Deb]

Maybe, but I don't think it's coming that fast. I found a screen capture from 3/3/2016 for Superchargers. Do you really think that there will be a network of 120 kWh or higher chargers for the Etron by the end of the year that is remotely close to this? Remember, it's not just how many stations there are, but where they're located. Will a cross country trip really be practical in an Etron any time soon?

Here's the map of Electrify America sites that are on schedule to go operational this year. AFAIK all of the chargers are at least 150kW. I really hope Tesla releases a CCS adapter for North America. More options for the chronically overcrowded Superchargers here in CA.

 

[Zoomit]

Maybe, but I don't think it's coming that fast. I found a screen capture from 3/3/2016 for Superchargers. Do you really think that there will be a network of 120 kWh or higher chargers for the Etron by the end of the year that is remotely close to this?

I think it'll exceed that with respect to facilitating nationwide long distance travel.

If we just look at Electrify America, they're very transparent (primarily due to government mandate) and seem to have met or exceeded their previous targets. There's plenty to read about their plans: Our Plan | Electrify America and history: News and updates | Electrify America

The EA network rollout is occurring faster than the initial Supercharging network rollout. If you haven't been paying attention recently, it really is remarkable. And 2019 is just the beginning as total investment will be $2B over 10 years thanks to Dieselgate.

Bottomline, the current 150+kW CCS charging infrastructure for long distance travel is inferior to the Supercharging network but rapidly evolving.

 

[GregD60]

Here's the map of Electrify America stations that are on schedule to go operational this year. AFAIK all of the chargers are at least 150kW. I really hope Tesla releases a CCS adapter for North America. More options for the chronically full Superchargers here in CA ...

I hope EA is successful in their endeavor, but I'll be surprised if they have that full network operational by the end of the year. And I totally agree that a Tesla CCS adapter for North America would be very nice.

 

[Dana1]

He did say 80 mph. Driving at 70 mph would save about 50 Wh/mile

I recently had a 300 mile trip averaging mid 200s to higher 200s. 350 seems like a lot of peeling off from stoplights, lol, rather than an autopilot freeway trip.

 

[chronopc]

How much does it cost to charge at EA sites?

 

[Zoomit]

How much does it cost to charge at EA sites?

Pricing | Electrify America

 

[SammichLover]

Maybe, but I don't think it's coming that fast. I found a screen capture from 3/3/2016 for Superchargers. Do you really think that there will be a network of 120 kWh or higher chargers for the Etron by the end of the year that is remotely close to this? Remember, it's not just how many stations there are, but where they're located. Will a cross country trip really be practical in an Etron any time soon?

Why I didn’t say 2016.

EAs map is around, compare to mid-2015

 

[SageBrush]

How much does it cost to charge at EA sites?

Less than calling a tow truck

 

[GregD60]

Why I didn’t say 2016.

EAs map is around, compare to mid-2015

Or since the EA map is supposed to be as of the end of 2019, perhaps we should compare it to a current Tesla map.

 

[sreams]

Here's the map of Electrify America sites that are on schedule to go operational this year. AFAIK all of the chargers are at least 150kW. I really hope Tesla releases a CCS adapter for North America. More options for the chronically overcrowded Superchargers here in CA.

Seattle to Chicago is going to suck based on this map.

 

[chronopc]

Pricing | Electrify America

Why can't they just charge per KwH? $1/session and then 30-35 cents per minute? What's that per KwH assuming that you charge from 0-80% on an etron?

 

[SageBrush]

Why can't they just charge per KwH? $1/session and then 30-35 cents per minute? What's that per KwH assuming that you charge from 0-80% on an etron?

150 kW = 2.5 kWh a minute. Math is hard

IIRC EA plans to charge tiered rates by kW. I think the second tier at 70 cents a minute starts at 150 kW
So $1 + 70 cents per 2.5 kWh

 

[GregD60]

150 kW = 2.5 kWh a minute. Math is hard

IIRC EA plans to charge tiered rates by kW. I think the second tier at 70 cents a minute starts at 150 kW
So $1 + 70 cents per 2.5 kWh

Which is $1 + 28 cents per kWh. It seems they've decided to make the price per kWh the same as Tesla's nation Supercharger average, but then they add on a dollar. Adding on a dollar doesn't sound like much, but if your "fill up" is 40 kWh, the $1 is about 9% of the $11.20 kWh charge, or if you just need half that amount of charge the $1 is 18%.

 

[Zoomit]

If you're really curious about the EA network, there are a couple interesting differences from the V2 Supercharging network. Each stall has dedicated power like the V3 Superchargers will have. In addition, each stall has two cables. It's not possible to charge two cars independently from each stall. Instead, the two cables provide redundancy if one cable is broken or overheated plus they improve the flexibility to handle cars with charge receptacles in different locations.

So a 4 stall site has 7 CCS cables and 1 CHAdeMO cable. That site can provide 800kW continuous (350 + 3x150). This is closer to a 4-stall V3 SC site (1000kW cont.) than a 4-stall V2 site (300kW cont.). That 4-stall 800kW EA site has basically the same power output as a 10-stall V2 site.