Dec 2021 M3P HV battery replaced - have they fitted the right one?

[Adopado]

Tesla does not replace faulty cells. If a pack has a single failed cell in it, Tesla can't refurbish that pack, the whole thing is sent to be recycled.

Not individual cell but I believe they can replace modules (which contain a number of cells) so not needing to dispose of the whole pack. It will be a different matter for the new 4680 glued structural pack.

Elon Musk Tweeted back in 2019 "Model 3 drive unit & body is designed like a commercial truck for a million mile life. Current battery modules should last 300k to 500k miles (1500 cycles). Replacing modules (not pack) will only cost $5k to $7k."

 

[MP3Mike]

Not individual cell but I believe they can replace modules (which contain a number of cells) so not needing to dispose of the whole pack.

Nope, they do not replace individual modules either. (@wk057 has said that they did try that for a while but it appears that they couldn't find modules that matched closely enough for the pack to last long term, so they stopped and just recycle those packs now.)

Elon Musk Tweeted back in 2019 "Model 3 drive unit & body is designed like a commercial truck for a million mile life. Current battery modules should last 300k to 500k miles (1500 cycles). Replacing modules (not pack) will only cost $5k to $7k."

Yep, their plan was when the pack "fails" that they would replace all 4 modules in it for $5-7k. They have not started doing that. (And likely have changed their minds and won't.)

 

[Jason71]

I know this is an old thread but what am I missing?
thought the EPA range on a brand new M3P was 315miles (that is what the US site says) and this is what the cars display. so after a year of use you would expect the range to be down 5% to about 299 (since it typically dips that much in the first year)
Op said his car was down 10% at 289. Which would make the range before the change 321 miles. I appreciate 289 is still less than 299 but its nothing like 10%?
do the UK cars have a different range displayed when new?

 

[GlynG]

Either way, cells, modules or entire battery replaced - the point regarding BMS and a few charge cycles still apply to get to maximum capacity.

 

[islandbayy]

Module Level replacements are coming "soon". Tesla is upgrading it's Buffalo, NY Facility. It will have a whole new setup/section for complete analyzation down to Module & brick level. So dead packs will go in, modules will be removed, connected to the equipment, which will excessively analyze and benchmark each Module and apply a rating. So when a battery then comes in for repair, they can find the absolute closest matching module. Wasn't really possible to do this before, and the supply of dead/defective packs was too low. But with Millions of cars on the road, they have a much bigger supply of potential modules.
My assumption would be, in the case they do not have a replacement module that would be a close enough match to repair a pack, they would then take that pack apart and use it for module supply.
The buildout for this started around last August/September. Not sure of completion date. The facility/shop is about the size of a high school gym.

 

[MP3Mike]

But with Millions of cars on the road, they have a much bigger supply of potential modules.
My assumption would be, in the case they do not have a replacement module that would be a close enough match to repair a pack, they would then take that pack apart and use it for module supply.
The buildout for this started around last August/September. Not sure of completion date. The facility/shop is about the size of a high school gym.

Interesting that they would start this now, as most of those millions of cars, are ones that only have 4, or 5, modules in them. And the modules aren't all identical. (I can't remember if the two inside modules are the same, and the two outside are the same, or if the left/right ones are different as well.)

And the chemistry keeps changing, so it would seem like finding a match would be next to impossible. If they can do it great, but I have my doubts. (Like I doubt that the size of a high school gym would be large enough to keep all of the modules in inventory, not to mention the fire risk of keeping that many modules in a small space.)

 

[islandbayy]

Interesting that they would start this now, as most of those millions of cars, are ones that only have 4, or 5, modules in them. And the modules aren't all identical. (I can't remember if the two inside modules are the same, and the two outside are the same, or if the left/right ones are different as well.)

And the chemistry keeps changing, so it would seem like finding a match would be next to impossible. If they can do it great, but I have my doubts. (Like I doubt that the size of a high school gym would be large enough to keep all of the modules in inventory, not to mention the fire risk of keeping that many modules in a small space.)

Difficult to find a match, yes, which is why they are setting up this facility. Modules will all be benchmarked and categorized. How well it will work in practice? We'll find out. Thinking out loud, possibly larger bleed off resistors in the packs for balancing/equalization would be a good idea, and would allow for more of an "fudge factor" in capacity between modules & bricks. Personally, and I used to install these on the old EV Conversions I used to build (Was Wisconsin's first electric car dealer, and I did conversions). We had active battery balancing. Basically it would shuttle the charge between batteries instead of just bleed it off with a resistor. Though likely would be too expensive to implement on a huge battery pack, or then again, benefit of volume so maybe not??? Fairly easy and cheap back then though, since most of the conversions were lead acid.

 

[DBM3P]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread... My Model 3 Performance from Q4 2021 is in the service centre for a battery replacement.

This looks to be a 'common' issue... see here MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

Does the OP have any luck getting evidence out of Tesla about the condition of the refurbished battery? No capacity rating from them? I've been told that mine will be replaced with a 'like for like' pack, with the same degradation as mine.

Mine had full charge of 275 miles (EPA new of 315) when it failed - at 18 month old and 13,000 miles. I would expect a replacement that follows fleet degradation (or a brand new one) - not one that follows the degradation of one that clearly has a manufacturing defect.

 

[MP3Mike]

Mine had full charge of 275 miles (EPA new of 315) when it failed - at 18 month old and 13,000 miles. I would expect a replacement that follows fleet degradation (or a brand new one) - not one that follows the degradation of one that clearly has a manufacturing defect.

You might expect that, but that wasn't what was promised to you in your warranty.

And there is nothing saying that the defect that caused the failure in your pack is at all related to the degradation. (~13% degradation probably isn't even that far from normal.)

 

[DBM3P]

You might expect that, but that wasn't what was promised to you in your warranty.

And there is nothing saying that the defect that caused the failure in your pack is at all related to the degradation. (~13% degradation probably isn't even that far from normal.)

What would be normal degradation after 13k miles and 18 months? I'm reading some people having 4-5% after a year and tailing off after that

 

[WannabeOwner]

What would be normal degradation after 13k miles and 18 months?

TeslaFiwill tell you that information (or rather will tell you what the Fleet Average, for your type & age of vehicle and similar mileage, is. That isn't the same as what warranty offers you though - that will say you need "pretty dire degradation", and most of the fleet will do far better than that

But I suspect you would have had to be using TeslaFi "since new" to have enough accumulated data to get that graph.

Could be a crowd-puller for TesalFi (similar to their Firmware Update up-take option, which is open-to-all, and shows how widespread the rollout of a particular version is. So assuming not available without a full history IN TeslaFi it might be worth recommending it as a feature for non-members.

 

[eivissa]

What would be normal degradation after 13k miles and 18 months? I'm reading some people having 4-5% after a year and tailing off after that

The survey is slowly getting enough data to paint a picture, so you can extrapolate from this. The main takeaway is, that you want a battery pack that has "423" in the part number to get good capacity/range results after the battery swap!

Panasonic 82kWh Degradation Survey

Degradation overview of the Panasonic "3L" 82kWh used in the Model 3 Performance Refresh 2021/2022 Akkuwiki @ TFF

docs.google.com

Panasonic 82kWh Degradation Survey

Graphs

docs.google.com

 

[M1tch]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread... My Model 3 Performance from Q4 2021 is in the service centre for a battery replacement.

This looks to be a 'common' issue... see here MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

Does the OP have any luck getting evidence out of Tesla about the condition of the refurbished battery? No capacity rating from them? I've been told that mine will be replaced with a 'like for like' pack, with the same degradation as mine.

Mine had full charge of 275 miles (EPA new of 315) when it failed - at 18 month old and 13,000 miles. I would expect a replacement that follows fleet degradation (or a brand new one) - not one that follows the degradation of one that clearly has a manufacturing defect.

My Q4 2021 M3P (23k miles) is also in for a new pack. Been there for nearly 2 weeks now, the car hasnt moved a mm and they are waiting for my pack to arrive - it’s on a ship somewhere.

I was at 294 ish miles at 90% and hadn’t even considered they would put a degraded pack in! Will keep an eye on it when I get it back.

Update - the car is now inside, boot, bonnet and doors are open so guess they have started something!

 

[JIBYC]

My Q4 2021 M3P (23k miles) is also in for a new pack. Been there for nearly 2 weeks now, the car hasnt moved a mm and they are waiting for my pack to arrive - it’s on a ship somewhere.

I was at 294 ish miles at 90% and hadn’t even considered they would put a degraded pack in! Will keep an eye on it when I get it back.

Update - the car is now inside, boot, bonnet and doors are open so guess they have started something!

What triggered your replacement?

 

[DBM3P]

My Q4 2021 M3P (23k miles) is also in for a new pack. Been there for nearly 2 weeks now, the car hasnt moved a mm and they are waiting for my pack to arrive - it’s on a ship somewhere.

I was at 294 ish miles at 90% and hadn’t even considered they would put a degraded pack in! Will keep an eye on it when I get it back.

Update - the car is now inside, boot, bonnet and doors are open so guess they have started something!

Really seems like a common theme. Check this out from a German forum Pana Problem and the previous post from @eivissa

You were lucky to have 294 at 90%!

 

[M1tch]

Same warning as the OP of this thread.

I lost about a 1/3 d of my range on some days and others ot was fine.

 

[eivissa]

I enquired on 9 occasions if the replacement HV battery fitted was the 82KWH capacity battery and not the 75 KWH battery fitted to older models, but the answer was not forthcoming. The SC were able to confirm it’s a refurbished battery though.

They legally can't do that. Only certain combinations have been approved for the European market and the Refresh 2021 Performance was only certified with two batteries back then. The 82kWh Panasonic called "3L" and 567km WLTP (352 miles) and the LG Chem 5C with WLTP 514km (319 miles). The latter was luckily never released to the public and since your paperwork will state "Variant E3LD" they legally cant put the LG 5C in there, as this would void your registration paperwork.

ASY,HVBAT,E3,AWD,3PH,M3Y,RMN (1800083-01-C)

Thats a remanufactured Panasonic 82kWh pack, but these packs have shown to have quite low capacity as you can see here:

Panasonic 82kWh Degradation Survey

Answers Zeitstempel,Where was your car built? Check your VIN!,When was your car first delivered?,What is your current odometer reading in km? (Please convert miles to km!),What is your current "Rated Range at 100% SOC"? (Please convert miles to km!) - Projected Range at 100% is also valid for ...

docs.google.com

I think we had the BT37 until the BT43 started being shipped, but I’d need to do some more digging to find out when it actually changed (and if I’m right). I know some thought we had the bigger battery for a while but we didn’t in the U.K., but that might have been the LR, not the P.

You are missing the BT42 in between, which is the battery pack that failed here. This started in Europe in Q4/2020 and ended in Q1/2022. I think in contrast to the M3LR, the Performance was always in line with the rest of Europe.

I appreciate Tesla are within their rights to use a refurbished part for a warranty claim

No idea about UK law, but in Germany we dont only get warranty, but a legally any item is sold with two years of "Gewährleistung", which also translates to warranty in english, but it is a bit different. In that time period, repairs should be done with new parts, not refurbished ones and actually, if you look into the Google table above. A lot of customers have been getting new battery packs from the US with great capacities as they should be, when new.

Op said his car was down 10% at 289. Which would make the range before the change 321 miles. I appreciate 289 is still less than 299 but its nothing like 10%?
do the UK cars have a different range displayed when new?

The range display in all M3P Refresh models is capped at equivalent of ~80,6kWh, as this translated into the 315 miles of EPA range, that Tesla is offering in the US. Any capacity above 80,6kWh is not shown as additional range in the car. A perfect Panasonic 82kWh 3L battery pack will go to the real 82kWh when calibrated, but the rated range will stop at 316 miles / 509km when 20" Uberturbines are selected in the car.

And there is nothing saying that the defect that caused the failure in your pack is at all related to the degradation. (~13% degradation probably isn't even that far from normal.)

13% isn't far from normal degradation if the car is made in China with the China assembled Panasonic battery packs with part number 1660112-00-#, though does that mean this is normal degradation? I would clearly say no! Initial degradation in the first year should be around 5-6% and additional 1-2% in the following year in normal usage. The fact that these chinese made packs are degrading and failing so fast points to a much more serious issue and Tesla is only acknowladging the failure when the car is dropping error messages and won't charge anymore, but when you point out that your car has lost 15% of range within the first year, they tell you that it is all ok and within spec. Typical Tesla service experience as usual.

Update - the car is now inside, boot, bonnet and doors are open so guess they have started something!

Keep us posted which battery pack you've got according to the invoice and what the claimed 100% range is, when you get it.

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

You are missing the BT42 in between, which is the battery pack that failed here. This started in Europe in Q4/2020 and ended in Q1/2022. I think in contrast to the M3LR, the Performance was always in line with the rest of Europe.

We didn’t get it in the U.K. and nor did most of Europe, they had the smaller battery pack and buyers were offered a discount

 

[eivissa]

We didn’t get it in the U.K. and nor did most of Europe, they had the smaller battery pack and buyers were offered a discount

Sorry, but that is not true. The release of the Model 3 Refresh Performance was harmonized between the USA, UK and the rest of Europe. The Panasonic 82kWh pack bumped the range to 315 EPA Miles in the US and 352 WLTP km (567km). The Panasonic 82kWh pack was the essential part for the range increase. These cars were first offered all around in Q4/2020 (october) and delivered in november and december. Also in the UK.

This is waybackmachine from the UK website:

This is the WLTP run from the new refresh type certificate:

This is the Tesla created decoder for the type certificate:

This is the capacity decoder from the type certificate:

Net capacity of the WLTP run can also be caluclated:

• WLTP Consumption - Charging Losses = Actual Consumption during WLTP run
• Actual Consumption * WLTP Range = Net Capacity during WLTP run
• 12,4% Charging losses works on all WLTP runs of Model 3 and Model Y to get to the correct capacity. 82kWh in this case.

 

[M1tch]

Keep us posted which battery pack you've got according to the invoice and what the claimed 100% range is, when you get it.

Wonder if I’m going to need a new 12v battery too. Doors and boot left open all weekend (and tomorrow I imagine) and the HV batt has dropped from 17% to 4%. Wonder if this is going to drain the 12v batt too…..