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Deciding on second EV, a non-Tesla

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I think the next few years will be telling for non-Tesla EVs. Now that Ford and VW have their first “mass market” EVs out, these charging network issues will start to stand out more.

Non-technical and non-enthusiast drivers will not be very forgiving of being left stranded with their families by their EVs because of flaky charging. It’s one of those things that could quickly sour a lot of people on EVs and limit their adoption in the US if it isn’t addressed (even if the cars are otherwise great).

Ford and VW will probably end up needing to take ownership of the infrastructure and fix it if they want to succeed.
1,000% agree. When I first got my Bolt and began asking about these issues, Bolt owners condescendingly noted that I was a newbie and I had to lift the cord, etc. and that I'd get used to it. But 99% of people that get an EV aren't going to know the tactics to try to get a charger to work, nor will they care. They just want reliability and when chargers don't work and they get stranded somewhere, it's going to be really bad and stand out as being a huge problem.
 
1,000% agree. When I first got my Bolt and began asking about these issues, Bolt owners condescendingly noted that I was a newbie and I had to lift the cord, etc. and that I'd get used to it. But 99% of people that get an EV aren't going to know the tactics to try to get a charger to work, nor will they care. They just want reliability and when chargers don't work and they get stranded somewhere, it's going to be really bad and stand out as being a huge problem.
The sad part is that VW DOES own their charging network, Electrify America..... What does it say that their own cars have trouble charging at their own network? I'm sure they will get it (and their software) right. If they had waited about 6 months they might not have had all of these issues.
 
The sad part is that VW DOES own their charging network, Electrify America..... What does it say that their own cars have trouble charging at their own network? I'm sure they will get it (and their software) right. If they had waited about 6 months they might not have had all of these issues.
I recall reading somewhere that the CEO of VW promised a countrywide trek using (their) EA network using an ID.4 but after it failed the first time or two, he cancelled the trip and declared they needed to do a much better job. And from what I’ve read, they’re failing at his mission.

To me, that lack of reliable public infrastructure should alarm anyone who’s looking to use a non-Tesla EV for road tripping.
 
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I had a BMW i3 with range extender for three years and loved it. I used about 3 gal of gas for the range extender per year. My MY is larger and I need the space for hauling ‘stuff’ but for a small electric car, I think the i3 is great

My daughter has an Audi etron, which I think has a much nicer interior than my Y. It seems to have about as much trunk space as my Y which was my primary reason from moving from the i3 to the Y. I love my Y but the etron has a plush German quality interior.

If I needed a small electric car, I’d go for a used i3 with range extender. I’ve seen them at the BMW dealer for around $20k. These are probably the best bargains in electric cars today.
 
That's actually believable - not too different from Tesla RWD vs. AWD (hard to compare now as there isn't a Model 3 or Y with the same battery size between the RWD and AWD). Of course once you start using that additional 50% of power it won't be quite as good :) But if you drive both in the same way it should work.
Yes there is data, 2018 LR RWD M3 325 miles, 2018 LR AWD M3 310 miles (2019 SR+ M3 RWD 240 miles, 2018 MR M3 RWD 264 miles). However, these tests are done at slow speed with no outside interference (weather, wind, etc.) with multipliers to get the range. In the real world, I would bet the difference is way more than 15 miles. Just seems like an additional motor would be way more than 4.6% range hit by weight alone, not to mention the draw form powering two axles vs one. I also don't believe the reported figures showing only a 6wh/mile increase in consumption for a battery that weighs 30+% more and is the largest contributing factor to the overall weight of the car. If you look at the consumption of the MR that would extrapolate to 251wh/mile (62-54=8, 235-225=10, 75-54=21*10/8=26.35, 225+26.25=251wh/mile). Obviously the additional mileage in the LR rundown test is not done at the same rate as the full rundown on the SR+ or MR. If the additional 11wh/mile consumption is to be believed for the LR AWD then by using the above number you go from 251 to 262wh/mile. Using that number you get 75,000wh/262=286 miles. That seems much more reasonable. Using the same percentage for the ID.4 (which doesn't have near the wh/mile efficiency based on EPA numbers so would likely be a lower conversion), you would get at most 220 miles. The M3 increase in power from RWD to AWD is 286hp to 346hp, only a 21% increase in power. Factor the additional increase in power and I think they would be lucky to get 200 miles EPA.

Just going off of the range vs battery size of all the above cars you can get the following efficiencies and make your own conclusions.

240 miles, 54kWh 1 motor (225wh/mile)
264 miles, 62kWh 1 motor (235wh/mile)
325 miles, 75kWh 1 motor (231wh/mile)
310 miles, 75kWh 2 motors (242wh/mile)
 
I had a BMW i3 with range extender for three years and loved it. I used about 3 gal of gas for the range extender per year. My MY is larger and I need the space for hauling ‘stuff’ but for a small electric car, I think the i3 is great
Looked at those, too. They look great, particularly if you have a short-ish commute. I personally didn’t see the advantage over a Bolt for myself though. Prices are close for used ones now and the gas-powered engine in a Rex i3 is really weak. It’s a good car though and really comfortable overall.
 
We got a Audi eTron - and love it. Closer to the MX in size - way more comfortable and a better ride (to us). Yes, lacks Tesla tech and supercharging. We’re in NorCal - so plenty of chargers available - and some free. Fast charging with EA has worked really well for us.

here’s the eTron next to our overnight test drive MY.
 

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Thanks to @Paloent , I got the bolt for a cheap lease. Is not at a Tesla level, but it's pretty fast and zippy. Perfect for a second car driving to work, also it's a perfect car for my college boy when he comes back home in holidays and summer to drive it
My wife loves it too since it's small, she likes to drive a small car also. After few days of driving, highly recommend the bolt as a second car. For sure don't use it as a family car since it's very small to me :). Fun car to drive, especially in-road driving, like the streets of San Francisco.
 
Yes there is data, 2018 LR RWD M3 325 miles, 2018 LR AWD M3 310 miles (2019 SR+ M3 RWD 240 miles, 2018 MR M3 RWD 264 miles). However, these tests are done at slow speed with no outside interference (weather, wind, etc.) with multipliers to get the range.
Actually, Tesla runs the full "5 cycle" EPA test which includes high speeds. Other EV manufacturers use the simpler, low speed "2 cycle" EPA test and apply a 0.7 multiplier to get the range. Only Tesla that I know of runs realistic range tests, while the rest run unrealistic tests and apply a fudge factor.
 
If you look at the documents there is a multiplier on Tesla since there is no resistance on a dyno. SR+ M3 gets like 360 miles of range in the rundown tests. Yes there are some high speed runs but I think most is slower. I forget the actual breakdown of the 5 cycle but most manufacturers suggest the 5 cycle gives Tesla a more optimistic range and multiplier than they can do on the 2 cycle test.
 
Actually, Tesla runs the full "5 cycle" EPA test which includes high speeds. Other EV manufacturers use the simpler, low speed "2 cycle" EPA test and apply a 0.7 multiplier to get the range. Only Tesla that I know of runs realistic range tests, while the rest run unrealistic tests and apply a fudge factor.
That's interesting, and would love to see the source for that. However, if that's true, then why does Tesla consistently underperform it's range estimate while other brands seem to frequently overrun theirs in tests? Here are some reviews I've seen -



Not being a wisea$$ here, I know that testing can certainly be variable based on conditions - but it is interesting.
 
That's interesting, and would love to see the source for that. However, if that's true, then why does Tesla consistently underperform it's range estimate while other brands seem to frequently overrun theirs in tests? Here are some reviews I've seen -
But this is exactly the reason. Tesla runs the 5-cycle test and does not apply the 0.7 fudge factor. Other manufacturers run the unrealistic 2-cycle test and then multiply the range from that test by 0.7. The 0.7 correction factor is intended to be conservative, partly for consumers and partly so that automakers too lazy to run the full test don't get an advantage in the ratings. The 0.7 correction is almost realistic for some EVs (Mach-E), but way too conservative for others (Taycan).
 
The little engine in the i3 is to power the battery charger. It’s not meant to power the car. The few times I needed to use the range extender, it really came in handy. That said, the extra range from the MY should avoid the need for a range extender.

Except when you need a little more range.

Case in point: just a month ago the weather here was in the low 30’s and I needed to make a short trip in my Y. When I got home, I had 2% showing on the display. I was in a bit of a panic.

With the range extender, as small as it was, I never worried.

I love my Y, but there are situations where other electric cars can do better.
 
Thanks to @Paloent , I got the bolt for a cheap lease. Is not at a Tesla level, but it's pretty fast and zippy. Perfect for a second car driving to work, also it's a perfect car for my college boy when he comes back home in holidays and summer to drive it
My wife loves it too since it's small, she likes to drive a small car also. After few days of driving, highly recommend the bolt as a second car. For sure don't use it as a family car since it's very small to me :). Fun car to drive, especially in-road driving, like the streets of San Francisco.
Love the Bolt. But with GIG cars here, I’m seriously considering renting one whenever I want to use one before leaving it wherever.
 
I know you mention a non tesla however, have you considered an older model S, 2013 or so. It's about the furthest you can get away from what Tesla offers today. Maybe it's me but I really fell in love with the older S when I had them for loaners. Yes, I understand it's still a tesla but it's a bit rough around the edges compared to the new 3's or Y's. They still have great power, including the S 60 I had once. Rear Wheel Drives are much different feel than most Tesla's All Wheel Drive. Just a thought. They're much slower charging than the new models but you won't be limited and still get to use the ever growing network of chargers.
 
The sad part is that VW DOES own their charging network, Electrify America..... What does it say that their own cars have trouble charging at their own network? I'm sure they will get it (and their software) right. If they had waited about 6 months they might not have had all of these issues.
And they just think they can throw some money to the problem. 30B really? They're going to find out the hard way, that's not how it's done.
 
Can anyone share the experience with public charing for non-tesla EV? I really don't want to buy another Tesla for a second EV, but I really "turn off" by the third-party public charing.
In 2012 I had one of the 2nd generation RAV4EVs. It was a struggle and when I got the MX in 2016 I could do riad trips again. I now have two Teslas and it is not boring. The M3 and NX are entirely different.