Defeating the Autopilot Nag

[Oz Will]

The point of level 2 is a bit like the points on the mountain all the way up, other than the summit - if you aren't prepared to do the hard work, and to learn how to do it safely, your odds of making it to the top are low, and odds of repeating it safely, even lower.

The software is not yet good enough for lots of everyday things, as we all know. Hand on the wheel is not an optional extra - and won't be for a while yet (and it will take even longer for our lawmakers to allow it if people hurt themselves or others rigging up contraptions like the one suggested).

I just hope those unwise enough to try what was suggested don't ever meet a kangaroo, a fallen branch, or someone's lost load, let alone someone's child.

Dave, I've never met you, but as a fellow Melburnian, I hope you will reconsider your suggestion. I want the Victorian government to legalise self-driving vehicles when the software is ready just as much as you. An accident involving a vehicle rigged as you have suggested would likely lead to all auto-steer functions being made illegal and disabled (we weren't first in the world with seatbelts or 0.05, etc for nothing). That would not be progress.

 

[Shock-On-T]

Yeah, that`s complete nonsense right there. Humans don´t work like that. At some point if you`re not forced to pay attention you will not pay attention. A few seconds are enough as can be seen by the latest fatal model x crash....

emergency breaking, lane keeping assistance, TACC etc are all great safety and comfort features and make for an overall more relaxed driving experience.

If you don`t deem that worth your money and insist on nag free autosteer, then you might want to wait another few years until at least level 4 on highways is available.

You're conflating holding with steering.
Steering makes one pay attention to the road, holding does not.

You're completely right that humans can't keep paying attention when attention is not required. I've made this case many times on this very forum. But that is a fundamental weakness of semi-autonomy. The autonomy part of semi-autonomy ensures reduced attention, and the semi- part makes sure the accident is spectacular. Where you put your hands doesn't change this.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

You're completely right that humans can't keep paying attention when attention is not required. I've made this case many times on this very forum. But that is a fundamental weakness of semi-autonomy. The autonomy part of semi-autonomy ensures reduced attention, and the semi- part makes sure the accident is spectacular. Where you put your hands doesn't change this.

Considering the current sensor setup in the interior for awareness detection...namely zero...there really isn`t another possibility to provide regular wake up calls than what we have at the moment.

If there was something like an eye-surveillance for the driver I´d be perfectly fine with allowing to take the hands off the wheel. And i do believe, that having to grip the wheel is different from not doing anything with your hands at all.

 

[eclectricdave]

I havent actually set up my car to do this yet only tested it. I only use AP on freeways with little traffic. Dont trust it. Also you can microsleep with hands on wheel & the car still goes. Perhaps future cars will have a button to press every 30 secs.

 

[Blue heaven]

Latest update now comes with more nag...

Tesla’s latest Autopilot update comes with more ‘nag’ to make sure drivers keep their hands on the wheel

 

[Uncle Paul]

The nag is not there because Tesla wants it, but because so many drivers are trying to game the system.

Every time you engate Autopilot you are notified to please keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any time.

If everyone would just do this simple thing, the autopilot would progess much more quickly.

People trying to develop all sorts of work arounds are causing all sorts of problems.

 

[eclectricdave]

I find I get nagged even with hand on wheel. Might try hand on wheel & elastics. This is my "last post" on this subject.

 

[raynewman]

The nag is not there because Tesla wants it, but because so many drivers are trying to game the system.

Every time you engate Autopilot you are notified to please keep your hands on the wheel and be ready to take over at any time.

If everyone would just do this simple thing, the autopilot would progess much more quickly.

People trying to develop all sorts of work arounds are causing all sorts of problems.

Keeping hands on the wheel does NOT stop the 'Tesla whack-a-mole' behavior.
and it's not because people gaming the system - it's because of the dickheads that can't or won't pay attention.

 

[meloccom]

I’m not aware of any touch sensors on the Tesla steering wheel, it seems to rely on a small amount of torque resistance to sense your presence. I find resting one hand on the wheel and applying a small amount of torque is enough to largely silence the nags. In any case, the car doesn’t seem to allow enough room between it and trucks in the next lane so I am often applying torque to mere further away.

 

[mrpseudonym]

Yes, it is torque input only. Trying to game the system does indeed inhibit progress, but the concept of keeping hands on the wheel in a semi autonomous system is not ideal, better would be a system that uses a driver facing camera that recognises driver vigilance and gaze direction. These systems already exist.

 

[baillies]

Some recent info from Elon on this topic.

Elon Musk on Twitter. “This is false. Eyetracking rejected for being ineffective, not for cost. WSJ fails to mention that Tesla is safest car on road, which would make article ridiculous. Approx 4X better than avg.‘

Elon Musk on Twitter “Sigh. This is crux of matter: can’t make system too annoying or people won’t use it, negatively affecting safety, but also can’t allow people to get too complacent or safety again suffers. Latest update should have a positive effect on latter issue especially.”

Elon Musk on Twitter “That issue is better in latest Autopilot software rolling out now & fully fixed in August update as part of our long-awaited Tesla Version 9. To date, Autopilot resources have rightly focused entirely on safety. With V9, we will begin to enable full self-driving features.”

Edit: added copy of tweet text

 

[Dborn]

I just returned from a trip to Canberra. I had my hands on the wheel the whole way. I still got the nag a few times. Reason? The car was tracking perfectly with negligible wheel movement and so no way to detect the resistance from my hands. It got to the point where I would jiggle the wheel a bit regularly to avoid the nag. A nuisance and distraction. I WAS watching the road carefully the entire time. So, some of these crashes where TESLA says the driver was not holding the wheel may be wrong! The car may simply have not detected that. Mind you, the driver likely was also not paying attention.

 

[raynewman]

I just returned from a trip to Canberra. I had my hands on the wheel the whole way. I still got the nag a few times. Reason? The car was tracking perfectly with negligible wheel movement and so no way to detect the resistance from my hands. It got to the point where I would jiggle the wheel a bit regularly to avoid the nag. A nuisance and distraction. I WAS watching the road carefully the entire time. So, some of these crashes where TESLA says the driver was not holding the wheel may be wrong! The car may simply have not detected that. Mind you, the driver likely was also not paying attention.

or was paying too much attention to the stupid warnings.

 

[Frank88]

STUPID warnings?

Really?

What kind of warnings would be acceptable?

 

[McRat]

 

[raynewman]

STUPID warnings?

Really?

What kind of warnings would be acceptable?

That should be obvious - any warning that did not require taking eyes off the road.

 

[d21mike]

I just returned from a trip to Canberra. I had my hands on the wheel the whole way. I still got the nag a few times. Reason? The car was tracking perfectly with negligible wheel movement and so no way to detect the resistance from my hands. It got to the point where I would jiggle the wheel a bit regularly to avoid the nag. A nuisance and distraction. I WAS watching the road carefully the entire time. So, some of these crashes where TESLA says the driver was not holding the wheel may be wrong! The car may simply have not detected that. Mind you, the driver likely was also not paying attention.

Jiggle? I would recommend you read many many of the posts that show that slight torque or resistance is all that is needed. You should need to jiggle the wheel.

 

[WhiteStar]

STUPID warnings?

Really?

What kind of warnings would be acceptable?

Yes pretty stupid to make the warning a single white line at the top of the IC instead of the the obvious white border as it was...not that I’ve seen it because I haven’t updated but why?

 

[ZTrekus]

You know... there really ought to be in the settings somewhere, an option to turn the nag off. That way Tesla can always say "The driver chose to turn it off get off our back about it" instead of trying to impose a nanny-state on all of us. Turning it off can come with all the warnings, confirmations etc... it can even default to on every time you start the car again for crying out aloud... but ffs the whack-a-mole game is just ridiculous. I'm afraid I'm on raynewman's side on this one.

 

[WhiteStar]

Wondering how long I can stay on 2018.18.2...some time in the 2020’s? Or will I get a forced update OTA or during my next service? I read one post that was certain of a forced OTA update. I’m not so sure about that.