Degradation of the Community...

[jeffro01]

this says it all, as they community of owners expands from the extremely tech savvy early enthusiasts to a broader spectrum of the population the participation from those who were willing to accept any shortcomings of the car/company is diluted by those who are just interested in owning a cutting edge vehicle and are less tolerant of the "growing pains" from a manufacturer that has a propensity to overpromise and underdeliver on those promises.
the only ones that need to be corralled are the blatantly profane or the real trolls, many have been over moderated for opinions that were contrary to "church of elon".

I can always count on you to prove my point... Come on man... Really...??? The "church of elon"... That stuff is absolutely unnecessary and unneeded here and it's gotten wayyyy to old now...

Jeff

 

[bonnie]

The most active "regional" subforum of TMC is that of the Low Countries (Belgium and the Netherlands), and that is also truly the most impressively civilised forum on the whole Internet, imho . No trolling, no name calling. The subforum doesn't even need moderation, as far as I can tell. The fact that any Belgian or Dutch TMC member will most probably, at least once each year, cross other Belgian or Dutch TMC members at SuperCharger stops on their way to the Alps when vacationing probably does help keeping things civilised

Sadly, as we all know, people will say anything behind the anonymity of the keyboard... That's arguably one of the worst things about the internet...

Jeff

I've always been curious regarding the relationship between completely anonymous names & level of civility online. @Carl , you bring up a good point regarding the fact that members will undoubtedly run into each other at some point. And yes, @jeffro01 , there are many that let out their inner troll when they don't think they'll ever be held accountable.

I still laugh over one forum member who ran into me, who thought he was completely anonymous, until I mentioned something about the forum and his posts. Hahaha. I thought he was going to die a million small deaths as he stood there and endured my friendly chitchat. He KNEW what he'd said to me and he knew that I knew. Needless to say, things have been fine since anonymity was lost. Luckily (as so many people know), life is too short for grudges.

 

[kort677]

I can always count on you to prove my point... Come on man... Really...??? The "church of elon"... That stuff is absolutely unnecessary and unneeded here and it's gotten wayyyy to old now...

Jeff

point proven, next time I'll add a smiley emjoi, to soften the comment for the easily offended.

 

[PhatCat]

Kudos to OP.

i have been reading here since 2012 but do not post often. For the last few weeks I have been thinking of writing something very similar to the OP. I try to follow most topics here as a good source of enthusiast information on Tesla and it's products but recently i find it increasingly difficult to slog through pages of personal attacks, pissing contests and digressions. Most frustrating is how quickly so many threads go off topic because a few posters have to score points against each other.

Other than self policing I don't know what can be done about it. I now find myself skimming posts to identify a signal in the noise. At some point the return will not be worth the effort.

 

[SageBrush]

I'm not trying to create an echo chamber, I'm not trying to silence the real issues and criticisms of Tesla. As I've often said, Tesla is far from perfect... I just find all of the negativity provided by a very small group of posters here to be unnecessary and tiresome...

I was getting testy from the negativity until I was tutored in how to filter the threads I see in conjunction with some selective ignoring of a couple of members. As a guess I ignore half a dozen people

 

[anticitizen13.7]

I predicted several years ago that the TMC forums would degrade substantially around the time Model 3 began first deliveries.

The influx of new Tesla owners who are not car or EV enthusiasts means that a much higher % of members are less tolerant of "early adoption" defects and problems. The rise in value of TSLA only raises tensions for the people with lots of $$$ at risk. Bears who have been absolutely humiliated over the past 5 years lash out in anger because they lost $ and worst, lost face. Bulls fear the loss of their gains and reflexively hit back at Bears who try to bash Tesla.

When money and honor are on the table, things get ugly. I expect it will get even uglier from now through 2025, especially if Tesla does become a company that delivers 7-figures of vehicles per year. Given this reality, I hit back 10 times as hard if people behave badly here.

 

[bro1999]

Methinks some people need some thicker skin. *shrug*

 

[bonnie]

Methinks some people need some thicker skin. *shrug*

Hah. Well, I have a fairly thick skin & have dealt with this stuff for years. I rarely react in kind because it does nothing but further degrade things. But why not just expect people to behave civilly?

I've had great discussions with some here on the forum with wildly opposite points of view, without anyone insulting the other person. I always look at the little potshots that I see (and worse) as an indicator that the poster is trying to get an emotional response, because they know they don't have much else.

 

[brianman]

Having less than 100 posts I can't help but to feel like I am a part of this terrible "degradation" you write about.

You definitely are not what the OP was lamenting.

Welcome aboard, noob or not. There are no dumb questions. Just dumb people.

 

[brianman]

But why not just expect people to behave civilly?

I'd modify that slightly...

Etiquette (civility, for example) is desirable and should be reinforced, but that doesn't mean that I expect it. In fact, often I expect the opposite but try to nudge in the direction of civility (at least when I'm not having a bad day and say something stupid).

 

[bonnie]

I'd modify that slightly...

Etiquette (civility, for example) is desirable and should be reinforced, but that doesn't mean that I expect it. In fact, often I expect the opposite but try to nudge in the direction of civility (at least when I'm not having a bad day and say something stupid).

I don't think we're saying different things. As a goal, I think we should aim for it. Only saying that instead of expecting people to get thicker skins, we should expect civility.

We get what we are willing to accept.

 

[PaulusdB]

...@Carl, you bring up a good point regarding the fact that members will undoubtedly run into each other at some point...

As a matter of coincidence TMC member @Xfrank was so kind as to develop and distribute small 'TMC member' decals last week. For free. Just to recognise fellow TMC addicts irl, here in the low countries.
I'm certain @Xfrank is willing to share the design with any other party that is going to take care of TMC member communities elsewhere.

Sorry for the side step in this thread.

 

[McRat]

While a NFG on this site, I've been involved with auto enthusiast's sites for close to 20 years(?). We also own a racing site as a hobby. We don't let generic advertising on it, the last of a dying breed. No Walmart ads!!!

So .02c worth, and it's overpriced:

You see a disproportionate number of unhappy owners when compared to a normal sampling. People normally don't post 'my car ran good today' every day. But as far and the ratio of happy owners, this Tesla site is far higher than the average of auto forums.

To post on web forums, a thick skin is required. Even of Mother Theresa. There are 2 kinds of folk who post on the web. Those who have lost their temper, and those who will.

This site is unusual due to it's Dislike system. While Dislike button certainly cures hypotension in both the reader and the target, it's like the first episode of the Simpsons when they have family therapy and are issued shock buttons. They zap each other until the city has a blackout. It's an admin decision. If they like it, it's their board, but I can't seem to see the upside for it unless discord increases traffic, sort of like Pro Wrestling.

But nobody is a saint. And I will admit to abusing the 'Funny' button instead. It is effectively a Dislike button on steroids when the author is trying to be serious, and is a true WMD if the author is serious AND angry.

And yes, you will actually run into folk you trash talked on the interwebbythingy. So it's best to keep that in mind. Without exaggeration, I've met thousands of people in person who knew me from the web. Luckily people tend to be more civil in person. There was that one time in Texas though...

 

[bonnie]

@McRat ... and some people actually take the time to pm and have a 1:1 discussion. For whatever reason, it humanizes the discussion. I suppose maybe because it is no longer posturing to a larger audience, dunno. But it is always appreciated.

 

[Canuck]

I understand some old timers like @Canuck and the OP

That's funny that I'm now considered an "old timer". When I joined in late 2013 the old timers were Roadster owners and early Model S adopters. I got my S in 2014, just before AP hardware was introduced. In those days, this was a fun place to visit and people were helpful and friendly. How times have changed.

I understand some old timers like @Canuck and the OP here can't take this anymore when they are faced with reality and facts, because they failed to change with time and situation

I can take it -- that's not the issue.

You are correct that I don't change based on the "time and situation" like you do. I'm not a leaf blowing in the wind that goes with the flow. Instead, I look at the "reality and facts" which are: Tesla made the fist long range EV that is attractive and a real threat to ICE manufacturers. More importantly, it gives me some hope for my children's future, and all future generations. So I can't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Or they kept their eyes closed for the love of their cars/Tesla/TSLA.

That's some strange logic you have. I guess if you have a child who does something bad, or even a few bad things, you place no weight on the good they have done in the past, and the love you have for them, but instead write them off. Not me.

I strongly disagree with your view of how we should evolve. I hope to evolve by pushing myself in the direction that makes the most sense, and not by the "time and situation".

But it is more to do with them than the forum, which is evolving as the company and its customer base evolves.

You were not here when this forum was predominately based on people helping people and learning new things. I used to really enjoy coming here and reading posts, learning things, giving Tesla credit when they've earned it, and criticism when they deserve it. In fact, I bet I've criticized Tesla here more than you, including my comments that you called an "emotional outburst" where I said this:

Now, don't get me wrong, AP2.0 owners have good reason to complain, since Tesla way oversold AP2.0, and I don't mind people complaining about it -- but there's certain people here who relish in bashing Tesla, and life's too short to come here since they've hijacked pretty much every thread and belittle people like Bonnie who has done so much for the EV movement. It's disrespectful and rude.
snippiness

Edit: @bonnie You only had to read Canuck's emotional outburst in the other EAP thread 1-2 days ago.

It's odd that you need to tell Bonnie to read that thread when she was actively involved in it, even quoting my posts and rightly calling me out when I called some Americans "naive".

I also wish you would deal with the substance of what I said, and what you took issue with, rather than calling my posts an "emotional outburst", as if emotion is a bad thing. I'm Italian. I live my life with emotion and passion. I'm not a leaf blowing in the wind changing my mind based on the "time and situation". That's sound like a very passive and boring life to me.

To the OP: What can you do? I can think of a few options
a) Change with time

Now that's a good argument. Let's forget about everything else and just allow time to change our minds. Wind meet leaf -- no thinking required!

b) Increase your tolerance level to not bend out of shape on getting a few disagrees.

It's not about "Disagrees". In my "emotional outburst" posts, I said this:

I like it better when people disagree with me than when they agree with me if they are willing to debate the issue respectfully instead of just clicking "disagree" and saying "your logic is seriously flawed" without any rebuttal of substance. It's a cop out when you attack without substance.

In fact, the OP, @jeffro01, and I disagree often, to the point we recently had a private exchange about our disagreements so as not to continue to derail a tread. I really enjoyed our back and forth and I think he did too. We were emotional, which is not a derogatory word to me like it is to you, and we talked about the substance of the issues and actually found some common ground but agreed to disagree where we differed.

I also look at "Disagrees" as a childish, teenage, facebook type thing. If I disagree with you, I will tell you why with substance rather than hit the dislike button. When you agree there's no explanation needed. In my view, a disagree requires an explanation or it's just childish nonsense.

c) Request a "Pro Tesla echo chamber" to the site admin, where patting each other on the back is only thing allowed, and visit only that section.

Now we've hit the crux of your argument. We don't want a pro or anti Tesla chamber. We want to hear all comments, good and bad, about Tesla. But we don't want to come here and find the same people complaining about Tesla over and over and over again. I've really enjoyed my time here, and met some great people. @ohmman even included me in his pioneering X and Airstream adventures, when he visited me with his wife and kids at my vacation home:

Ohmman's Airstream Adventures

That is why I am here -- but unfortunately this place is no longer the place it once was. Instead of meeting and helping people, and talking Tesla, both good and bad, this place is more often than not an anti-Tesla echo chamber, which is exactly what some people want since we are now told to ask for the opposite if we don't like it, when in fact some of us don't want it to be either.

That's likely why there's so few real old timers left.

I was getting testy from the negativity until I was tutored in how to filter the threads I see in conjunction with some selective ignoring of a couple of members. As a guess I ignore half a dozen people

That helps but it doesn't bring back what we once had here.

Kudos to OP.

Agreed. Thanks @jeffro01 for saying what so many of us were thinking. Even if this place is doomed to end up like much of the rest of the internet, at least we won't go down without articulating the sense of loss some of us feel. That's much better than just going with the flow, and changing with time, which makes absolutely no sense to me.

I predicted several years ago that the TMC forums would degrade substantially around the time Model 3 began first deliveries.

Yes, it was inevitable. This place is now like most forums, where the negative posters have taken over causing others to leave or be belittled. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise but it is really too bad, at least for some of us.

"church of elon".

Can atheists attend?

 

[SageBrush]

That helps but it doesn't bring back what we once had here.

It does for me, because the (relative) absence of constant whining and trolling leaves a very nice and informative forum to enjoy.

By the way, I erred in my estimate. I have ignored 11 people with over 500 posts. Since forum membership is I think in the thousands, it points out that it only takes a few to spoil my enjoyment, and conversely it only takes a little culling to bring it back. I do see a fair number or posts that do not make sense to me, but then I realize that I am seeing rebuttals to ignored posts and I happily skip them.

 

[jelloslug]

Unfortunately, the internet take a thick skin and liberal use of the "ignore" button. I do value other opinions but some people are just toxic.

 

[Shock-On-T]

If you want to see a forum that's totally out of control, try the Tesla support forum.

This forum has the rating system, which incentivises useful and interesting posts, and disincentivises negative or frivolous posts. And it has the ignore system, to get rid of the obvious trolls.

Thanks to these tools the forum is fairly self-correcting, and I think remains an excellent resource and community.

I'm all for passionate discussions and even disagreements, it is a sign of the energy we are all bringing to this cause. We just have to remember that we are all on the same team, just arguing about the plays.

 

[SageBrush]

This forum has the rating system, which incentivises useful and interesting posts, and disincentivises negative or frivolous posts. And it has the ignore system, to get rid of the obvious trolls.

Thanks to these tools the forum is fairly self-correcting, and I think remains an excellent resource and community.

You just reminded me of slashdot. I don't read it anymore (not sure why) but it had a HUGE membership with a nucleus of extremely well informed and insightful people along with a mountain of trolls and noise. To a large degree the website solved the problem for me by instituting a rating system like we have here, along with the ability to filter by rating. I would just see those posts rated by the community as 3+ informative. Shilling was prevented by giving more rating weight to members who themselves were highly rated.

When Tesla grows to 500k new owners a year, it will be something to consider for this forum.

 

[Uncle Paul]

While it is expected to see some people with justified complaints post on the forums, there is also a small, but very vocal, group of investors on the short side that want nothing more than to try to disrupt forums like these as a thinly veiled attempt to lower the stock price.

They will argue, with the flimsly points to try to convince readers that the company is, in some way, guilty of nefarious practices and that the stock should go lower.

Compared to many other forums, this one seems pretty well balanced, with technical help, raising of issues, celebrating a purchase or road trip, notifying of new features, and areas that could use some work.

Very enjoyable for me to come here.