Degradation of the Community...

[AnxietyRanger]

Camaraderie of shared emotions - good or bad - is of course always valuable. So yes, I guess for those with grievances others sharing them can be very positive. For them the dude shouting lighten up is the negative one.

I like the Roadster forum (even today) a lot. I also like the Autonomous Vehicles forum a lot, so that kind of spirit is not at all lost on me.

I like the discovery. As you recall my Model X stuff was for the longest time about positive discovery. For some reason it was not welcomed by those who felt discovery was negative for Tesla... I still wonder about that to this date. Never happened before on any automotive forum. People use to love that stuff. Not here in 2015.

There is a wide diversity of motivation here.

I like a lot of what I'm seeing here these days, though. I am the very positive one about TMC in this thread, ironically...

 

[bcsteeve]

Complaining is negativity, even if it's valid, true, and what you want to hear.

I am positively certain (see what I did there?) that that's horse manure.

Complaining is complaining, and is not inherently negative. Complaining is a necessary element of progress. I personally think complaining is positive. As a business person, I value my customers' complaints. I fully subscribe to the theory that only a small percentage of people will do the courtesty of complaining. The majority silently walk away and do business elsewhere. If it weren't for the complainers, I couldn't improve. On that same not, I feel I am doing a positive thing by complaining about things that I don't find acceptable. I'm deliberately making sure they can improve.

Tesla is a fantastic company, in my opinion, but they are by no means perfect and they need to hear the complaints. More importantly, prospective customers need to be aware of the complaints so they can make an informed decision. Not everyone who is buying these cars can comfortably afford them. They are, perhaps, stretching their budget because they assign value to "the mission", etc. They need to go in eyes wide open and not be forced to only read positive things because some forum community decides it can't handle counter-views.

 

[bonnie]

I am positively certain (see what I did there?) that that's horse manure.

Complaining is complaining, and is not inherently negative. Complaining is a necessary element of progress. I personally think complaining is positive. As a business person, I value my customers' complaints. I fully subscribe to the theory that only a small percentage of people will do the courtesty of complaining. The majority silently walk away and do business elsewhere. If it weren't for the complainers, I couldn't improve. On that same not, I feel I am doing a positive thing by complaining about things that I don't find acceptable. I'm deliberately making sure they can improve.

Tesla is a fantastic company, in my opinion, but they are by no means perfect and they need to hear the complaints. More importantly, prospective customers need to be aware of the complaints so they can make an informed decision. Not everyone who is buying these cars can comfortably afford them. They are, perhaps, stretching their budget because they assign value to "the mission", etc. They need to go in eyes wide open and not be forced to only read positive things because some forum community decides it can't handle counter-views.

There is a huge difference between offering constructive criticism (which I feel you're talking about) and vomiting all over the forum, no matter the topic.

I'd also differentiate between those who share their constructive criticism with Tesla directly & those who just talk about it here.

Fair?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

There is a huge difference between offering constructive criticism (which I feel you're talking about) and vomiting all over the forum, no matter the topic.

I too would agree striking a balance is necessary and the polite thing to do. I think that goes to both the "negative" posters as well as "positive" posters and everyone in between. I'm sure we can all do a better job at allowing various voices be heard as well as politely tested and vetted.

I'd also differentiate between those who share their constructive criticism with Tesla directly & those who just talk about it here.

History has shown, Tesla listens better when the criticism is shared here. That's just a fact.

But here's the thing: You talk as if the criticism is only aimed at Tesla... posting it here means it is informative in nature, i.e. helping the community know about various things. If people like @wk057 or the people in the Performance limited threads would only have messaged Tesla, very important topic would never have been uncovered - and likely never changed (that took some court action, as well, though).

No matter the well-meaning intent, the idea that reserving constructive criticism merely to comms with Tesla seems unrealistic to me. It would deny a whole community of Tesla owners valuable information in the meanwhile. That would IMO be a disservice to the community.

 

[bcsteeve]

Fair?

Completely

 

[brianman]

vomiting all over the forum

I'm anti-vomiting. There, I said it. I don't care if that makes me negative.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I sometimes think the old adage of "one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter" (I guess think more in terms of occupied France in 1940s than necessarily modern-day, if it helps) applies to this positive/negative conversation as well, as a figure of speech of course...

It seems to me all (most?) poster groups tend to be both positive and negative, just about different things. For example, many very Tesla positive posters are often very negative on non-Tesla products and companies, as well as those they view Tesla critical. So depending on your PoV, these same people may seem to you as either very Positive (if you are "with" them) or very Negative (if you subscribe to a different school of thought). And of course, vice versa on the other side of the fence...

Does that make any sense to you guys?

 

[bro1999]

The irony of the OP getting banned after complaining about trolls "ruining" the forum is off the charts.

 

[bonnie]

I too would agree striking a balance is necessary and the polite thing to do. I think that goes to both the "negative" posters as well as "positive" posters and everyone in between. I'm sure we can all do a better job at allowing various voices be heard as well as politely tested and vetted.



History has shown, Tesla listens better when the criticism is shared here. That's just a fact.

But here's the thing: You talk as if the criticism is only aimed at Tesla... posting it here means it is informative in nature, i.e. helping the community know about various things. If people like @wk057 or the people in the Performance limited threads would only have messaged Tesla, very important topic would never have been uncovered - and likely never changed (that took some court action, as well, though).

No matter the well-meaning intent, the idea that reserving constructive criticism merely to comms with Tesla seems unrealistic to me. It would deny a whole community of Tesla owners valuable information in the meanwhile. That would IMO be a disservice to the community.

You know perfectly well I never said anything about NOT posting it here. I specifically called out those who 'just shared it here'.

wk was not known for spewing negative criticism everywhere, so I'm not sure why he's being used as an example. He had information to share and he shared it. Some of the information supported Tesla, much didn't - but he wasn't someone who would be on my list of complainers. I never once have implied that information shouldn't be shared. And I don't recall him showing up in multiple threads and repeating the same information repeatedly, disrupting conversations.

I really dislike how some very straightforward words have been recast to fit another worldview. I have never once said or implied that contrary opinions should not be shared or criticism had no place here. Not. Once.

I've tried staying out of this thread, I'm going to try REALLY hard again. It was a good topic to begin with and worthy of real discussion. But like the community, it has degraded. So out. Again.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

You know perfectly well

Actually, I am beginning to think I don't know. So, I do appreciate exchanges that clarify things. I think there may be misunderstandings on many sides. Perhaps too many of us are too quick to assume motivations on the other side that aren't there.

wk was not known for spewing negative criticism everywhere, so I'm not sure why he's being used as an example. He had information to share and he shared it. Some of the information supported Tesla, much didn't - but he wasn't someone who would be on my list of complainers. I never once have implied that information shouldn't be shared. And I don't recall him showing up in multiple threads and repeating the same information repeatedly, disrupting conversations.

Fair point. I guess I just used him as an example of someone who has posted really valueable stuff, some of it not very flattering towards Tesla. He also shared the exile with me on The Island for some reason as his contributions at some point were not welcomed. But you are probably right that @wk057 is not the best of examples in this context. I'll try better next time.

I really dislike how some very straightforward words have been recast to fit another worldview. I have never once said or implied that contrary opinions should not be shared or criticism had no place here. Not. Once.

Not all of which I wrote were meant to apply to you, so perhaps some sloppy writing on my part. But I appreciate your clarification on this as well. It perhaps sounded a bit like it that you'd prefer taking the conversation to Tesla instead of public. If I misunderstood, I apologize and stand corrected.

It was a good topic to begin with and worthy of real discussion.

I think it still could be, if we just try to understand each other. I understand if you don't want to and respect that, but just wanted to add that I think every message does add a bit of understanding.

 

[Sawyer8888]

Complaining is complaining, and is not inherently negative. Complaining is a necessary element of progress.

I agree with this statement. Complaining and constructive criticism (almost the same thing) are necessary for progress. However, anything in excess is no good. Folks that are overly positive can be a bit annoying as well.

I feel we are getting off track.

One of the primary points of this thread is to remind ourselves that we should avoid personal attacks when voicing our opinions and facts. That way we can remain a civilized virtual community.

@ohmman makes a good point about always being negative in social settings. If you are being critical of someone or something, be sure to add value to the conversation or your circle will quickly shrink. Just as important, if not more, remember to be nice when speaking to others at your next gathering (includes TMC) or your circle will disappear faster than Tesla's automatic emergency brakes.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Good post, @Sawyer8888. Thank you.

@ohmman makes a good point about always being negative in social settings. If you are being critical of someone or something, be sure to add value to the conversation or your circle will quickly shrink. Just as important, if not more, remember to be nice when speaking to others at your next gathering (includes TMC) or your circle will disappear faster than Tesla's automatic emergency brakes.

Balance is important, I agree. The hard part is diverse people view balance very differently. Some seek a cocktail-party lightness, others a semi-scientific SIG debate or an all out geek-fest...

 

[EchoDelta]

As a on-and-off participant who's derived lots of value in different forms from the forum over the years I wanted to give a big thanks to moderators, influencers, contributors & participants who are mindful of direction of the community & their role in it. Glad to see meta-threads like these although they take energy to go through.

Here's my 0.002... I spend enough minutes/week on this forum to care about the quality of life here

• I did want to empathize with the complexity of keeping a conversation -or even more complex, a community!- going in a context that has an ambiguous mission. Maybe reminding folks "we come to TMC for X,Y,Z" is a useful conversational tool for a cohesive community. E.g. we come to accelerate sustainable energy by learning.., sharing.., connecting.. etc etc focusing on Tesla products & company. We can then decide how critique of company, cars, etc can positively add to X, Y or Z (hopefully they will). Of course determining XYZ is something best done not by consensus, and those who don't like it can go elsewhere.
• About the role of critique of cars/company/etc personally, I prefer people share things here as long as they've also done what's appropriate in official channels with Tesla or whatever; and exercise caution, mostly because I care about the mission (think grandkids etc), and I'd be sad if an outcome of the forum is a net negative side effect for the company (as opposed to helping positive corrective action on substantial issues).
• I was really surprised to see the different perceptions of the "dislike" reaction and what it means to some folks. I learned for some it feels like an affront, like 'one step before a report' or a statement of dismissal unwillingness to engage in conversation. The way I've used it, and the way I see many use it, is as a 'single emoticon response' - as a statement of disagreement with opinion, for things that aren't important or influential enough to warrant explaining why with more characters. If I see a post next step up in the importance scale (e.g. a post that may influence others into taking misinformed decision, perpetuates misinformation, or sets negative role models or tones etc) then I also try to post prose in response. But I'll gladly explain why I 'disagreed' if asked. My point - aside of my own usage patterns - is that people may be using the 'reactions' with different semantics/meaning than some recipients ascribe to it, so an isolated analysis of their usage by members may yield a very distorted lens on who's adding 'health' to the community.
• Which leads me to express my (maybe rash) opinion that the reactions on the forum are not designed around the sort of reactions you want to make easy to express with zero-effort gestures, that may generate the sort of homeostasis you seek.
• In my experience moderating communities; degradation happens when the feedback loops escalate from discussing instances of behavior, to behavior patterns, to character. E.g.1 "why do you keep posting X" to "you typically do X" to "you are a troll/bot/disgruntled/short/fanboy". I think TMC could give more corrective feedback about #2.
• And if debating things to monitor (e.g. via automated scripts, etc) I would recommend to focus on looking at the health of *links* - e.g. the link between members and members or links between members and topics/subforums. And then reflect back as feedback to the user e.g. stats in the profile page "here is the word cloud of your most liked posts" . "An outsider may think you have a bad vibe with member X. try to keep the conversation with them civil". #of disagrees given or received in absolute count (with no denominator) is super meaningless. Some people react to mirrors. And it may be useful for mods.

Again, thanks to influencers for having the thread, and hope this contributes to the design of the forum and moderation approaches.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I am not on @EchoDelta's side of priorities, but I pressed Love because of the eloquence, of taking the time, and clearly expressing priorities and preferences. They may not be mine exactly, but they are honestly and diligently put up for the community to consider. Got to respect that. This thread is IMO evolving great.

 

[tomas]

You know perfectly well I never said anything about NOT posting it here. I specifically called out those who 'just shared it here'.

wk was not known for spewing negative criticism everywhere, so I'm not sure why he's being used as an example. He had information to share and he shared it. Some of the information supported Tesla, much didn't - but he wasn't someone who would be on my list of complainers. I never once have implied that information shouldn't be shared. And I don't recall him showing up in multiple threads and repeating the same information repeatedly, disrupting conversations.

I really dislike how some very straightforward words have been recast to fit another worldview. I have never once said or implied that contrary opinions should not be shared or criticism had no place here. Not. Once.

I've tried staying out of this thread, I'm going to try REALLY hard again. It was a good topic to begin with and worthy of real discussion. But like the community, it has degraded. So out. Again.

I've really got nothing to add to this, or any more to say than I've already posted on the topic. I just had to get the last word.

 

[cpa]

There is a huge difference between offering constructive criticism (which I feel you're talking about) and vomiting all over the forum, no matter the topic.

I'd also differentiate between those who share their constructive criticism with Tesla directly & those who just talk about it here.

Fair?

Eminently fair, Bonnie. However (you just knew that there would be a "however!" ), it is my feeling that overall Tesla is non-responsive with issues unless they directly involve driver safety or the driveability of their car. Emails go unanswered. Responses to telephone calls (like with the Supercharger issues, the email that suggested that we should install home charging instead of usurping the local Supercharger when the closest one to me at the time was 70 miles away) were evasive or empty. I tried sharing my constructive criticism with Tesla. Never heard a word except for the intake person on the telephone.

I know that in the world of Tesla I am a peasant. I only bought one car. I have not referred a soul. I am OK with that. I do not expect gifts, gratuities, or favors. Just a little responsiveness from anyone who is above an entry-level position when I have taken the time to report a concern or voice a constructive opinion. I no longer contact them about anything. I truly believe that Tesla would prefer not to be contacted unless it is a dire situation.

I think others share my frustration and figure that calling or emailing Tesla is a waste of time. So they vent on this forum to assuage their frustrations.

Has autumn arrived along the Gorge?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@cpa I think @EchoDelta put so eloquently one prevailing motivation on avoiding public backlash to Tesla... Very open and honest. This is difficult to reconcile at times with ownership-centric motivations that usually drive a car owner community like this.

So while you are right, some might still feel it is detrimental to Tesla and the mission... It is rare to identify with the company and its mission so much in the automotive world IMO, but what @EchoDelta says we must recognize and respect as one motivation...

personally, I prefer people share things here as long as they've also done what's appropriate in official channels with Tesla or whatever; and exercise caution, mostly because I care about the mission (think grandkids etc), and I'd be sad if an outcome of the forum is a net negative side effect for the company (as opposed to helping positive corrective action on substantial issues).

 

[bonnie]

Eminently fair, Bonnie. However (you just knew that there would be a "however!" ), it is my feeling that overall Tesla is non-responsive with issues unless they directly involve driver safety or the driveability of their car. Emails go unanswered. Responses to telephone calls (like with the Supercharger issues, the email that suggested that we should install home charging instead of usurping the local Supercharger when the closest one to me at the time was 70 miles away) were evasive or empty. I tried sharing my constructive criticism with Tesla. Never heard a word except for the intake person on the telephone.

I know that in the world of Tesla I am a peasant. I only bought one car. I have not referred a soul. I am OK with that. I do not expect gifts, gratuities, or favors. Just a little responsiveness from anyone who is above an entry-level position when I have taken the time to report a concern or voice a constructive opinion. I no longer contact them about anything. I truly believe that Tesla would prefer not to be contacted unless it is a dire situation.

I think others share my frustration and figure that calling or emailing Tesla is a waste of time. So they vent on this forum to assuage their frustrations.

Has autumn arrived along the Gorge?

I have no issue with venting. I do have an issue with dragging down every thread with repeated obsessive venting. "I'm so happy with my new car!" gets followed by "Wait six months and let us know how you feel then." That is not constructive criticism, it's not analysis, there's nothing scientific about it - it's just the whole crotchety 'get offa my lawn!!' mentality.

Off topic: The Gorge is on fire, due to a 15 year old with fireworks. (In fairness, a lightening strike would likely have resulted in the same outcome.) But the smoke is thick and I'm thankful daily for bioweapon defense mode when I'm out and about. I won't go on further about this, because it's clearly off-topic. But the impact has been massive.

 

[JRP3]

I get it that some say it is the repetition, but that at the same time people don't mind repetition of things they find positive, nor do unresolved issues realistically go away after one mention.

Actually I do mind excessive and unrealistic positivity as it creates overblown expectations which can lead to disappointment. I try to point this out when I see it. Seeing only sunshine and rainbows is not helpful if you're fast approaching a cliff, but neither is seeing only cliffs when traversing gently rolling hills.

 

[bcsteeve]

I feel for you with the fires. My province was virtually all on fire this summer. 3 straight months of smoke, smoke, smoke. There were days I couldn't see the grass on my own lawn because the smoke was so thick. Horrible summer, on the whole.

And while it may be off-topic for this thread, I don't believe it is off-topic for this forum. The fires weren't caused by a kid with a firework, or lighting or a tossed cigarette butt... they real culprit was the insanely and increasingly hotter and drier summers undoubtedly caused by climate change. The fires were - and I'm not being cheeky here - one of the reasons I moved up my Tesla purchase plans.