Degradation of the Community...

[Doug_G]

I think it's fair to say there are a few people on here with a chip on their shoulders, for whatever reason. That's not a problem as long as they don't post the exact same complaints in 50 different threads. Even so it takes a heck of a lot of doing that to get banned. Basically that happens when the moderators get tired of dealing with it. Making extra work for moderators is frowned upon.

The primary reason for people getting banned is personal attacks. Some people can't stop themselves, or seemingly don't understand there's a major difference between countering an argument and dissing the person. Again, it's a pattern of behavior and failure to respond to warnings that gets you banned.

Some people push back very hard against the moderators. That very much works against them. What we want to see is, "Okay sorry I see where the limits are, and I'll stay inside them." Sometimes we get cussed out. That's a great way to get on a very short leash.

If there's degradation of tone here, it's probably because the moderators are getting diluted by the volume of activity on the forum, and in some cases perhaps getting a bit worn down.

Despite a few problem children, the majority of participants on the forum make very positive contributions.

 

[brianman]

Quoting for context not to respond directly:

I have no issue with venting. I do have an issue with dragging down every thread with repeated obsessive venting.

Another example, but about positivity. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages (New Posts) but I see Troy's findings about the range of 3LR all over the place it seems. I appreciate his research and effort to share with us (and others), but can't it be in a single thread rather than posted repeatedly in multiple threads?

 

[tomas]

Quoting for context not to respond directly:


Another example, but about positivity. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages (New Posts) but I see Troy's findings about the range of 3LR all over the place it seems. I appreciate his research and effort to share with us (and others), but can't it be in a single thread rather than posted repeatedly in multiple threads?

Better to report in offending threads? True cross posting against forum rules.

 

[Merrill]

So negative things are positive to negative people?

Complaining is negativity, even if it's valid, true, and what you want to hear.

Positive things are actions to address the issue. You like to suggest that posting here is an action to address the problem. Maybe it is, but it is the absolute minimal form. And posting repeatedly the same negative comments over and over in different threads doesn't appear to have been effective in that regard.

Read the Roadster forum, or early Model S threads. People had problems and worked positively to a resolution. They voiced their distaste for the issue but also did something to solve it.

Yes, reminds me of meetings I had in my career. I always tried to solicit ideas from my employees about anything I wanted to do, I could have just said do it period. Of course that is not my management style, but I also said I welcome comments and I do not want complaining without a suggestion of how we could improve something. So give me your negative with an idea or suggestion of how we can accomplish our goal. Just always complaining without positive input is worthless.

 

[bcsteeve]

I have to disagree (complain) about that last statement. It depends where the complaint is coming from. You can't expect your non-expert customers, for example, to provide positive input on how to fix a problem... that's your job. They just know they don't like it ("it" being whatever they're complaining about).

I can complain about Donald Trump and have absolutely no idea how to fix him. (that's a lie. I know how. But I'll get arrested for suggesting it)

 

[alcibiades]

As a clear member of the degrading class, and I imagine this will finally get me the ban hammer for being upset about how Tesla has handled nearly everything since 10/16, the difference in how moderators treat posters who don't like things vs posters who do is luridly transparent. It is a shame because I came to this forum when I was considering buying my X and only because of the extreme disappointment in fit issues was I careful when I purchased. It is only because of the extreme disappointment with ghosting windshields that I discovered a newer windshield to try to get put on my X. In every thread about these issues there were initially people who badgered "the complainers". I was called a "short" from the get-go. I had posters assert that I was lying about even owning a car. This goes on with impunity in nearly every thread in which people share complaints and disappointment. Endless badgering and accusations.

The degradation of this forum is a direct result of increased audience and the inability of the forum owners to make clear whether this is an enthusiast forum or a general Tesla discussion board. If it is the latter, then the moderators need to come to terms with the increasing pool of owners and their experiences. If it is the former, then they should add an explicit tagline to the forum name. Let it be known that at the end of the day, this is a celebration.

As an owner I have an interest in the success of the company. But as an owner I have legitimate concerns and it is through community interaction that solutions and discovery can take place. It would be a shame if Tesla Motors Club's forum decided not to be a place for it.

Clearly, it is not a place for me.

 

[calisnow]

As a clear member of the degrading class, and I imagine this will finally get me the ban hammer for being upset about how Tesla has handled nearly everything since 10/16, the difference in how moderators treat posters who don't like things vs posters who do is luridly transparent. It is a shame because I came to this forum when I was considering buying my X and only because of the extreme disappointment in fit issues was I careful when I purchased. It is only because of the extreme disappointment with ghosting windshields that I discovered a newer windshield to try to get put on my X. In every thread about these issues there were initially people who badgered "the complainers". I was called a "short" from the get-go. I had posters assert that I was lying about even owning a car. This goes on with impunity in nearly every thread in which people share complaints and disappointment. Endless badgering and accusations.

The degradation of this forum is a direct result of increased audience and the inability of the forum owners to make clear whether this is an enthusiast forum or a general Tesla discussion board. If it is the latter, then the moderators need to come to terms with the increasing pool of owners and their experiences. If it is the former, then they should add an explicit tagline to the forum name. Let it be known that at the end of the day, this is a celebration.

As an owner I have an interest in the success of the company. But as an owner I have legitimate concerns and it is through community interaction that solutions and discovery can take place. It would be a shame if Tesla Motors Club's forum decided not to be a place for it.

Clearly, it is not a place for me.

I have, if I recall, vehemently disagreed with some things you've said in the past. But I must say - this is an excellent post and it should not get you banned. This post is an honest explication of your feelings and position. It's fair. And it's relevant. I, personally, believe and want TMC to be - as you aptly put it - a place of "celebration." That does not mean no criticism. That does not mean sweeping defects and safety issues and scandals under a rug. I don't want it to be fanboy central. But - I would say it's a "club" - the word club generally implies a group of people enthusiastic about something. To me that's fine - that's appropriate.

 

[calisnow]

I too would agree striking a balance is necessary and the polite thing to do. I think that goes to both the "negative" posters as well as "positive" posters and everyone in between. I'm sure we can all do a better job at allowing various voices be heard as well as politely tested and vetted.



History has shown, Tesla listens better when the criticism is shared here. That's just a fact.

But here's the thing: You talk as if the criticism is only aimed at Tesla... posting it here means it is informative in nature, i.e. helping the community know about various things. If people like @wk057 or the people in the Performance limited threads would only have messaged Tesla, very important topic would never have been uncovered - and likely never changed (that took some court action, as well, though).

No matter the well-meaning intent, the idea that reserving constructive criticism merely to comms with Tesla seems unrealistic to me. It would deny a whole community of Tesla owners valuable information in the meanwhile. That would IMO be a disservice to the community.

Agree with @AnxietyRanger on this one - information must be free. That's critically important. All institutions tend to hide problems - it's their nature. Forums and press serve a vital function - to keep problems public and thus increase the odds of them being solved.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Agree with @AnxietyRanger on this one - information must be free. That's critically important. All institutions tend to hide problems - it's their nature. Forums and press serve a vital function - to keep problems public and thus increase the odds of them being solved.

Note that myself and others are NOT in favor of “hiding” problems.

There is a clear difference between people who provide constructive criticism of Tesla (like wk057’s technical posts on how Tesla’s battery capacity labels were misleading, and the person who posted about his Model S delivered with an egregious crack in the A-pillar), and people who continually post empty snark just to be a pain, or spread FUD because it’s in their financial interest.

The intent of the post matters a lot. Is the person trying to highlight a problem and propose a solution? Or are they just here to insult and mislead? In the case of several bad actors here, some now banned, it’s very clearly the latter.

 

[buttershrimp]

Not to get too far off topic but I'm serious in asking what happened to that dude that came on the forum and said his car was defiled by the service center? Did he ever explain what came of that?

That kind of thing confuses me, and is possibly does more damage than posting on being disappointed about broken promises on AP. I'm all for venting, but leaving a flaming bag on someone's porch and ringing the doorbell isn't good either....

Also, maybe a good option for the really angry and negative folks would be to have a time delay post restriction that mirrors the half-life of ambien?

 

[Krugerrand]

I think it still could be, if we just try to understand each other.

If you simply took what people type as exactly what they mean (i.e. It's a cat doesn't mean puppy-monkey-baby, it means cat) and stopped (typing) over, around and under people there'd be absolutely no misunderstanding.

You know this but you continue to want to convolute the conversations. It's as if you're afraid everyone will leave the thread before you can complete your soliloquy.

 

[ohmman]

As a clear member of the degrading class, and I imagine this will finally get me the ban hammer for being upset about how Tesla has handled nearly everything since 10/16, the difference in how moderators treat posters who don't like things vs posters who do is luridly transparent.

OK, I'll bite. You might as well show some of the easiest, most egregious examples, since it's so luridly transparent. I personally work very hard to try to maintain a lack of bias with moderation, and I believe it sometimes makes me err on the opposing side of my bias (in an attempt to stave off any complaints about that bias). My observations here among fellow mods is that they try to do the same. None of us are perfect or even close, but I'd like to see some evidence of this seemingly simply proven statement. And since you've used the plural of moderator, I'd like to see a few examples from more than one.

 

[JRP3]

I can state as fact that one of the most annoying FUD stirring anti Tesla bears on this forum continues to post in the investor section despite the vocal majority of members asking the moderators to remove him. Most of us have him on ignore because he posts zero useful information and simply regurgitates the same old bear arguments we've been hearing for years, but enough people engage with him to clog up the thread. Frankly I'm not at all happy with that moderator for allowing this to continue for months on end, especially as his inaction actually creates more work for himself when people get heated when responding to the FUD. In my 10 years on this forum I've rarely used the ignore function and rarely requested bans other than obvious spam, bots, and the clearly unhinged personalities. So I can't agree that moderators necessarily treat negative posters worse than positive ones.

 

[Doug_G]

LOL I stay out of the Investor subforum!!!

 

[stopcrazypp]

OK, I'll bite. You might as well show some of the easiest, most egregious examples, since it's so luridly transparent. I personally work very hard to try to maintain a lack of bias with moderation, and I believe it sometimes makes me err on the opposing side of my bias (in an attempt to stave off any complaints about that bias). My observations here among fellow mods is that they try to do the same. None of us are perfect or even close, but I'd like to see some evidence of this seemingly simply proven statement. And since you've used the plural of moderator, I'd like to see a few examples from more than one.

I figured someone would say that this forum is biased against the negative members, but actually the TMC moderation is one of the most tolerant I have seen, especially for an auto enthusiast forum. In other forums, moderators don't tend to be so professional and will use the banhammer a lot more frequently.

Here we even tolerate members that are clearly fans of a different brand and come here to make backhanded comments about Tesla. These types of members tend to be banned very quickly in other forums.

We also keep almost all posts (just moved to the snippiness or other quarantine threads). Other forums would just directly delete the posts in question. Yet sometimes people here still scream "censorship" when their post is moved.

Another thing is that we allow public discussion of moderator action (as happening here). Other forums there is extremely strict enforcement against this (not only will thread immediately be locked or deleted, a ban usually shortly follows).

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you simply took what people type as exactly what they mean (i.e. It's a cat doesn't mean puppy-monkey-baby, it means cat) and stopped (typing) over, around and under people there'd be absolutely no misunderstanding.

You know this but you continue to want to convolute the conversations. It's as if you're afraid everyone will leave the thread before you can complete your soliloquy.

IMO, this is over-simplification of how communications work. I don't buy taking people literally would help, quite the contrary. Comms is complex and people are complex - understanding them takes work and effort.

The thing is, you see my messages as attempts at convoluting, when they are attempts at explaining. Rejections of those explanations result in more explanations etc... Those explanations apparently don't fit your worldview of who and why I am here, so you tend to ignore or not believe them, or so it seems to me.

I don't think you are malicious or have any ill-intent in doing so. I genuinely believe you think I'm malicious (for the lack of a better word, I hope we don't get bogged down on a word) in my intent - at the very least trolling or somesuch. The reality is, though, nothing could be further from the truth. I see most people here as online friends and would like to be one for them as well.

As said, one of my great regrets here are the several prominent posters who do not "get" me. That is my failing as well as, I guess, in part theirs. If attempts at explanation are seen as hostile from the get-to, they will never reach the listener - and that is IMO unfortunate.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Thank you for a nice post, @anticitizen13.7. One comment:

and people who continually post empty snark just to be a pain, or spread FUD because it’s in their financial interest.

I wonder how many people do either of those things on TMC, though? I know it is a common allegation, but mostly IMO unsubstantiated one.

I would guess most people who "vent" their frustrations are not doing it for either of those reasons, anymore than most people who "hype" their happiness is doing it for those reasons. People tend to talk what is on their mind and what is their view at a given time.

For example, I guess some might consider me a profilic "negative" poster, but I never post anything to be a "pain" towards anyone. If I sometimes slip into snippiness, it is because I too am human and have to take some pretty awful words and thoughts at time... And I don't even want to be doing that, at all, those are merely mistakes.

Most of the time those topics interest me, for whatever reason, and I take part in hashing them out the best I can. Sometimes that hashing out takes some repeition by nature, that's how we get to the bottom of things as well as acknowledge new participants in a on-going conversation (things get rehashed by and for new people)...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

fans of a different brand and come here to make backhanded comments about Tesla. These types of members tend to be banned very quickly in other forums.

I have to wonder about the existence of this too, especially since you used a plural. I can not think of any group of non-Tesla owning fans of other brands that were here making "backhanded comments about Tesla". It is not like this place is attracting droves of BMW fans, for example.

Tesla is a new brand, it is obvious most people have a lot more of experience in other brands - even fandom, that is to be expected. But I genuinely can't think of many that fits @stopcrazypp's description. Most of what I see people in this thread pointing out as "negativity" come from actual Tesla owners who have had negative experiences with Tesla.

Having said that, I've found most automotive forums overall being very allowing of other brands. They often even have named sub-forums for them. People tend to move from car brand to another much more than they perhaps do in some other things in life and they are long purchases, so forums tend to wish to hold onto their members even if they take a three-year stint with the competition.

 

[JRP3]

I can not think of any group of non-Tesla owning fans of other brands that were here making "backhanded comments about Tesla".

Look through the Chevy Bolt thread and you'll find at least two consistent posters doing exactly that.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Look through the Chevy Bolt thread and you'll find at least two consistent posters doing exactly that.

Fair enough. Though what's the problem in a Chevy Bolt thread in a relevant all-brand sub-forum. I'd assume we'd welcome Chevy owners there?