Degradation of the Community...

[EinSV]

Here is the basic problem IMO.

Tesla is disrupting the energy and automotive business at multiple levels. It is also the most highly shorted stock on the U.S. markets, and short sellers are well-known for "short and distort" strategies -- basically negative PR campaigns designed to drive down the value of the stock.

Although TMC is "an independent enthusiast organization," there are a large number of "members" who don't own a Tesla and have no interest in a Tesla. Some are here to promote the interests of short sellers or other car companies (most notably GM and some German brands). Others may be affiliated with parts suppliers, oil companies, car dealers and others who are threatened by Tesla. Tesla is turning some of the most powerful industries in the world upside down, and as those industries and individuals dependent on them feel more and more threatened, they are going to fight back, including through social media shenanigans.

When these people come to this independent Tesla "enthusiast organization" it is no surprise that they have little interest in building the community or treating other members with respect. They certainly have no interest in offering anything positive about Tesla. Instead, they are here to relentlessly post negative information with little or no regard for the community or other members.

IMO, it is no accident that the tone in the forum went downhill around the time of the Model 3 reveal, and that another uptick in negative posters coincided with the recent Model 3 handover event. The Tesla moderators on reddit also noted and commented publicly at a sudden rash of new members along with a sudden increase in negative posts around the time of the handover event.

While there are a fair number of disgruntled or angry owners on TMC who have experienced problems with their cars or disagree with management decisions, that would be more manageable if not for people who don't own a Tesla, have no genuine interest in one or are here simply here to smear Tesla. And IMO after Model 3 deliveries start ramping up it is likely to get even worse if something isn't done about it.

 

[GoTslaGo]

You just reminded me of slashdot. I don't read it anymore (not sure why) but it had a HUGE membership with a nucleus of extremely well informed and insightful people along with a mountain of trolls and noise. To a large degree the website solved the problem for me by instituting a rating system like we have here, along with the ability to filter by rating. I would just see those posts rated by the community as 3+ informative. Shilling was prevented by giving more rating weight to members who themselves were highly rated.

When Tesla grows to 500k new owners a year, it will be something to consider for this forum.

To me, the transition away from the previous green dot rating system for members was a significant loss for the site. I still recall reading posts on the site, and wondering about the veracity of the statement by the author of the post. Then realized the poster had very little "cred"--since they were either at one green bar or a grey bar (or worse, a red bar).

Then I would see someone like @bonnie or @Johan pipe in with a rebuttal (who had a lot of green bars). It provided me, as a noob, a basis of understanding who I could trust. Once the new site went away from that, it became more of a free for all. Which imho, was not necessarily a good thing.

This is not to disparage new members, it just was a way for me to recognize (as a noob at the time) what was relatively reliable information.

Still remember trying to give rep points when I was a gray bar... that was funny.

 

[brianman]

To me, the transition away from the previous green dot rating system for members was a significant loss for the site. I still recall reading posts on the site, and wondering about the veracity of the statement by the author of the post. Then realized the poster had very little "cred"--since they were either at one green bar or a grey bar (or worse, a red bar).

Then I would see someone like @bonnie or @Johan pipe in with a rebuttal (who had a lot of green bars). It provided me, as a noob, a basis of understanding who I could trust. Once the new site went away from that, it became more of a free for all. Which imho, was not necessarily a good thing.

This is not to disparage new members, it just was a way for me to recognize (as a noob at the time) what was relatively reliable information.

Still remember trying to give rep points when I was a gray bar... that was funny.

As the transition away from green was imminent, this was brought up by some of us. Alas, that didn't have an impact on the direction the site went.



There is some "community" aspect remaining though.

As an example, there was a thread started by Mario (one of the TMC members high on my respect list) titled something like "ask a physicist" which was just pure joy to read. In another thread someone asked question and was rude to Mario's post, and a number of forum members defended him immediately.

(Sorry if the example makes anyone uncomfortable.)

Another example that comes to mind is the friendships that have formed at Teslive and subsequent TMC Connect events. Aligning with bonnie's point about in-person interaction providing an opportunity for better relationship building.

I miss that sense of community, as I don't see it as much these days.


In that light...

Perhaps one small thing that can be done is reaching out to TMC members in your area in person. Suppose, for example, you live near Jeff and he's upset with someone in another region. Maybe meeting up with Jeff gives him a chance to air his thoughts and provide you with an opportunity to smooth the waters with the "upsetting someone". Not everyone is comfortable jumping in as mediator, but some people I've met excel at it. It's definitely a valuable social skill for improving open wounds and old scars.

 

[brianman]

Another suggestion about ratings:

1. Navigate to Tesla Motors Club
2. In the top right, hover over your avatar icon until the menu pops up
3. Click the "Your Profile Page" link

On the left, you'll see a "Post Ratings" section. Notice that the thumbs down ("Disagree") is red and the rest are green. Green is good, red is bad.


For each green row (Helpful, Informative, etc.), if Received is higher than Given then you have work to do. Keep this rating type in mind when you read posts. "Hey that was a good post that was worth my time to read. It deserves a ___ rating" should be part of your internal monologue if you want to be a positivity* contributor to this social experiment.

For each red row (Disagree), just keep an eye on it from time to time to see if the number is growing higher than you expect. If it is, then you're either "getting people out of their comfort zone" (which is totally fine, but there might be a better received way of doing so) or you're just being mean/rude/unfriendly/judgemental/whatever. You decide which and move on; don't dwell on it too much.


Data sharing in ratios [given : received]:

• Helpful -- 2.5
• Informative -- 3.8
• Like -- 0.277 (This one isn't expressive enough for my tastes)
• Dislike -- 0.525
• Funny -- 0.96
• Love -- 0.095 (A little too expressive)

I'm ok with those ratios, though I should probably loosen up -- give a few more Likes and Loves.

Also, my ratios are currently higher than normal because I've done more reading and rating than writing lately.


* Note: Some people don't want to be a "positivity contributor" and that's totally fine. But this thread was (I think) asking for suggestions on how to get back in a positive direction.

 

[jeffro01]

Another suggestion about ratings:

1. Navigate to Tesla Motors Club
2. In the top right, hover over your avatar icon until the menu pops up
3. Click the "Your Profile Page" link

On the left, you'll see a "Post Ratings" section. Notice that the thumbs down ("Disagree") is red and the rest are green. Green is good, red is bad.


For each green row (Helpful, Informative, etc.), if Received is higher than Given then you have work to do. Keep in this rating type in mind when you read posts. "Hey that was a good post that was worth my time to read. It deserves a ___ rating" should be part of your internal monologue if you want to be a positive contributor to this social experiment.

For each red row (Disagree), just keep an eye on it from time to time to see if the number is growing higher than you expect. If it is, then you're either "getting people out of their comfort zone" (which is totally fine, but there might be a better received way of doing so) or you're just being mean/rude/unfriendly/judgemental/whatever. You decide which and move on; don't dwell on it too much.

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately people use the dislike here as a reflex action... So I do dispute your assessment of what might cause a dislike...

Jeff

 

[brianman]

Thank you for the info. Unfortunately people use the dislike here as a reflex action... So I do dispute your assessment of what might cause a dislike...

Jeff

"Disagree" not "Dislike"....

 

[jeffro01]

"Disagree" not "Dislike"....

My apologies, typed it from my phone and didn't catch it...

Jeff

 

[Skotty]

Let me start by saying I realize there are people here who don't like me, have claimed to have put me on ignore, etc... As such, I expect that whoever reads this thread won't agree with what I'm about to say but I feel like this needs to be said somewhere and this looks like the best spot just looking at the various forums and sub-forums...

TMC, as a community, has really gone downhill... There is a handful of members that are constantly dragging this place down with their constant negativity and anti-Tesla stances. This used to be a enthusiasts forum but it's really turned into a constant whine fest where Tesla can't do anything right and is always doing something "wrong"... I'm not here to claim Tesla is perfect, far from it, but at some point there has to be line between the constant whining and some semblance of positivity... It's predictable now just which members are going to come out against Tesla no matter the issue, and this is creating a toxic environment.

Make no mistake, I have contributed my fair share of posts towards this toxic environment in that I'm brash, non-apologetic, rough, and direct... That clearly isn't helping so I'm trying to make an active effort to dispute the idea, not the person posting it... Even still though, I make mistakes that get me into trouble... My question is why is TMC, and the people who run it, continuing to allow certain members free reign to dump on Tesla any opportunity they get? If it were me, I'd clean house and get rid of this small, but vocal, minority of users who are directly causing this toxicity. However, I do not feel that TMC is that kind of a place in that I haven't seen the people in charge take such drastic action before so I can appreciate their unwillingness to do so now.

That being said, what can we do? I haven't listed the small minority here but can, and will do so, privately if any of the mods would like to know my thinking on this. I will continue to try to no longer contribute to this problem and will use the report function, without retaliation, as instructed by @efusco but would like to see a broader approach...

Thanks,
Jeff

Without reading the rest of this thread, I'm just going to guess that you are getting bashed pretty hard in the replies.

The simple reasoned response is that this is a free community for discussion. They are free to voice their opinion, as long as it doesn't cross the line of decency, or appear to be intentionally deceptive. You and others are free to monitor, respond with counter arguments, and if necessary, report them if you think they cross one of those lines.

You know, this thread is analogous to the current political situation in America. The real problem isn't the liberal agenda, or the conservative agenda; it's when either side loses decorum. Those are the types of scenarios where corrective action is warranted; intentional dishonesty, verbal abuse of opponents, attacks on the the body of fundamental principles or established precedents of the web site, or prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone. Those are the kinds of things that need to be disciplined on TMC.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

"Disagree" not "Dislike"....

I think this is very important to keep mind.

Also, I find it ironic that Canuck got slammed for an emotional outburst. He's one of the most level headed, wise members on here. It just goes to show there is no pleasing everyone all of the time.

 

[aronth5]

I've been following the forum daily since 2008 and joined in 2010. This topic has come up before and it always comes back to one word "civility", which can be summed up as the "quality of being polite":
If only more individuals practiced civility we would all be better off whether at home, work or this forum. So when your writing a post and realize your criticizing the individual and not their opinion, stop and change what you were going to write. You will be glad you did!

thank-you

 

[T34ME]

there are many that let out their inner troll when they don't think they'll ever be held accountable.

Perceptive that you say this. I live in a gated community with a lot of dog owners (I am one of them). We have a problem with some residents who wont pick up after their dog. We have found that some owners do not pick up after their dog if they think they are not being observed, like after dark. But if people think they are being watched, they become model citizens in keeping our community clean!

As a guess I ignore half a dozen people

Yes, you can put some members on the "ignore" list (and I have done that) but I have found it equally effective to just skip over their posts. Same goes for some threads, I find some of them to be meaningless and pointless. For example the multiple threads about the looks of the Model 3. Either like the looks or not. Either buy one or not. No one is going to change their mind one way or the other. I am now ignoring those threads because they just become argumentative to the point of monotonous.

But why not just expect people to behave civilly?

Unfortunately incivility appears to be the new norm and acceptable behavior practiced by influential people in the US. And I will leave it at that.

It's not about "Disagrees". ................If I disagree with you, I will tell you why with substance rather than hit the dislike button.

I am not a fan of the "disagree" button. In my opinion, it stifles conversation. If someone disagrees with me, I would like for them to tell me why they disagree and we have the opportunity to start a meaningful dialogue.

I think the Forum could be improved by
1. allow member posts to be edited indefinitely. Right now, you have to buy a membership in order to edit your posts after about 30 minutes. I know the owners of this site have to pay their bills, but preventing an edit should not be one of the ways.
2. eliminate the "disagree" button. (Watch this post will likely get a lot of "disagrees" with no explanation!)
3. moderators should make more liberal use of locking a thread when it becomes repetitive and argumentative, usually with only half a dozen or so people participating.

Now I'm going out to look for some Model 3's out in the wild.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

You know, this thread is analogous to the current political situation in America. The real problem isn't the liberal agenda, or the conservative agenda; it's when either side loses decorum. Those are the types of scenarios where corrective action is warranted; intentional dishonesty, verbal abuse of opponents, attacks on the the body of fundamental principles or established precedents of the web site, or prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone. Those are the kinds of things that need to be disciplined on TMC.

Part of the problem is that corrective action is rarely taken in some of the subforums here. A number of people take advantage of this to spam the sub with self promoting or abusive posts.

A vile rape joke (which I reported) was alowed to persist in the investor's forum for weeks, while weekend posts about the impact of the Elon/Amber relationship on TSLA got quarantined. The joke was only taken down after I complained to the site owners. A certain ex forum member was allowed to relentlessly spam the same forum with nonsense, and was only banned after a post saying they would commit an act of violence against another forum member. Similar bad actors have been allowed to persist despite reprehensible behavior.

The green bars and reputation points from the previous forum software actually did a good job of keeping bad people's influence down. Currently, one must take the extra step of looking at the user profile to see likes/disagrees , and profiles are often blocked on many accounts.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Sadly, as we all know, people will say anything behind the anonymity of the keyboard... That's arguably one of the worst things about the internet...

Jeff

It's also one of the best things.

Two parties in a relationship change. UItimately they may part, on good or bad terms.

As for me, I haven't noticed degradation. There are a few loud bulls and bears, fanbois and trolls, but it's a forum, not a restaurant. You can just ignore anyone who isn't worth your time.

 

[EinSV]

Here is a list of a few practical suggestions to make TMC more friendly to owners, potential owners and enthusiasts who want to share or learn information about their cars and engage with others with similar interests (all mentioned in this thread and elsewhere on TMC):

(1) Reinstate reputation points or something like it.
(2) Encourage regional forums to be more active and have more events for Tesla owners and enthusiasts to interact face-to-face. In other words, work to be more of a car club and less a Tesla debate circle.
(3) Consider a certified owner tag if technically feasible to reduce the number of fake owner posts.
(4) Ban shills and trolls.

I believe removing the Disagree button would be a big step in the wrong direction. Using the Disagree button is the only current way on TMC to express your disagreement with a troll/shill post without engaging in a debate which just sidetracks the thread and starts the spiral downward.

 

[buttershrimp]

What an Interesting thread!

I like that the forum creates room for most people, and the only times I've been really bothered was when I got censored for being too lewd with my jokes, but I learned from it, and now I'm much more PG-13 with my humor... Cue fart joke.

But it seems to me that we gravitate to the thread's that express what we are feeling at the time (good ol' confirmation bias). Most of the time, people that come to the forum are enthusiastic owners. Some people are venting frustration and perhaps the perceived anonymity helps them vent.

On the other hand, it is important to remember that every forum member is an actual living person.... That's right, even @brianman with his freakish computational bot-like knowledge is a human, and even he has feelings (expressed primarily in 1's and 0's).

Moral of the story? Negativity gets old. Even Elon (praises be upon him) seems to be bothered by criticism, and I'm glad it doesn't change his behavior too much, because he's still trying to innovate and do his thing.

Perhaps all of can rally around the realization that other cars massively massively suck. I had to drive a lexus the other day and I almost threw up in my mouth when I pressed the accelerator. Even I have really lost perspective on how much other cars suck... even the i8 is just weird and sad and reminds me of a Tesla that's been brought back to life by the Night King dude from Game of Thrones.

So my solution to the negativity issue is rather than banishing people from the forum, let's just make them drive an ICE for a week...Then everyone on this forum will be back to saying, "I don't THINK I'm superior because I drive a tesla.... I KNOW I'm superior!"

 

[Bonlaw]

This is what I wrote not very long ago:
#30Bonlaw, Aug 19, 2017
Joined the forum 4+ years ago. Sadly it has evolved, in many instances, to a complaining board. Rather than looking in the manual or contacting Tesla when an issue is experienced, owners are coming to the board to complain, not to inform.
Initially we felt like a band of pioneers proud of what is being accomplished. We shared ideas and grew together into the new era of real usable EV transportation. This is not a luxury car, although it is indeed luxurious. It is car of the future -now. We were happy to be rid of dials and knobs and buttons. We didn't worry about misaligned panels or a drop of clear coat. We were just proud to be part of the process.
Just my opinion.

 

[alcibiades]

While it is expected to see some people with justified complaints post on the forums, there is also a small, but very vocal, group of investors on the short side that want nothing more than to try to disrupt forums like these as a thinly veiled attempt to lower the stock price.

They will argue, with the flimsly points to try to convince readers that the company is, in some way, guilty of nefarious practices and that the stock should go lower.

Who are these "shorts"? For example, I think Tesla is shady and I am very unhappy with them, but I don't own any stock. I just own a Tesla. I've shared my positive views on my car, too. It's just that I am very upset about EAP and FSD.

And I get the distinct impression that I'm not welcome here.

 

[Tiger]

Some people on talent shows just do not understand that getting feedback for your performance is the way to greatness. It's the same for Tesla. The more feedback it gets for the bullshit it does do, the better it gets, if it listens to the feedback. The opportunity is there. I hope Tesla listens to all the feedback before I finally have to buy one. I wouldn't want to suffer from panel gaps, cabin noise, lousy premium audio, etc. on my delivery inspection day

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

To me a lot of this is a result of the fallout due to the whole EAP/FSD fiasco, and the lack of really anything to be excited about to offset that.

I expect to see a pretty major transition with Model 3 buyers who won't harp on Tesla so much about FSD as hardly any of them bought that package. Plus the sheer number them will inevitably change the direction as they start to receive their cars. That's going to be a fun one as the Model 3 might just go down as one of the best vehicles made by anyone.

I also expect to see people a bit more chipper as EAP starts to suck less and less, and Tesla releases new features for it.

So just give it some time. Hell I'm still trying to learn to smile again after the election. It's going to be awhile. :-(

 

[Canuck]

I loved the green reputation bars. They maxed out at 12 and I got 12 right when they changed the forum. WK057 left because of this issue, or perhaps it was just the tipping point for him. He had a ton. I felt bad for some people who were really nice on the forum, and interesting and knowledgeable, but they had few bars. There were threads about it and I would point out that in order to have a lot of reputation bars you can't have an actual good reputation since whenever I went on the attack, or was rude or emotional (I've served my time in the snippiness thread) I would get rep points from people. So in order to have a good reputation, you needed to be, let's say, outspoken, like WK057 was and Bonnie still is - but both in very different ways.

Rumour was you got a free pony when you reached 12 green bars, but the program was cancelled when the forum changed and my pony never made it to shipping. That was right around the time AP hardware was showing up on cars and I found out mine didn't have the hardware.

So much for reminiscing about the good ol' days. Can't wait for my Model 3 so I can complain about AP2.0 too! Since it's going to replace our Leaf, my wife said it has to be white and when I saw this picture in another thread here I said fine by me...

Damn vehicles will keep me coming back here to battle the hecklers. My wife laughs about the drama here -- we're all like a bunch of gossipy old ladies she says -- and she's probably right.