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Degradation of the Community...

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by jeffro01, Aug 28, 2017.

  1. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    So my two cents on the green rep bars. I agree with those here saying it helped to know a little bit about the person posting. But, -ahem- speaking as the person with the most ponies when that system bit the dust, I can tell you that when I gave a like or dislike, the person receiving it knew it. I always felt uncomfortable giving dislikes out for that reason. And a like? It was almost worth another green bar. It seemed like a little too much power.

    I also watched a particular group (no surprise, some are still here and contributing to what we're discussing) start giving each other repeated likes, resulting in each getting more rep power and then bestowing it on their circle, and and and. It was not the better side of human behavior.

    So probably the old rep system could do with a little fine-tuning. I always wished I could give out different levels of points to people. And I'd def flag people repeatedly giving the same people reputation points and consider slowing them down.
     
    • Like x 2
  2. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    I think you're missing the point that many of us are making - it's not about the conversations. It's about 1) going into every thread and derailing with the same complaint that has been made in countless other threads, and 2) needlessly belittling fellow forum members. It's possible to disagree without attacking the other person.
     
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  3. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    In thinking about those rep bars, if I recall correctly they changed shades and got greener until they were fully green, then you got a new one, and you never really knew when the bars appeared and points required, although there was a thread that explained it and people with more rep, if they gave you rep, was worth a lot more than someone with little or no rep. If you gave rep to someone, then tried to again, it wouldn't let you until a certain time period expired. It was a good and fair system to me. The new system is plain bad and juvenile. There's confusion on Disagree vs. Dislike because for a long time it was Dislike. I thought it came from Facebook but my kids told me even Facebook doesn't use these terms. There's threads here complaining about it so it got changed. We should go back to rep bars and everyone who has given out dislikes start with red bars. That's what happened if you went into the negative and had to work back up to green. But that kind of feels like bullying and I didn't like the red bar part of it. It was changed not long after I joined if I recall correctly, so that only mods could give negative rep, which makes sense.

    Just some more old lady drama for everyone. ;)
     
  4. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    #64 Canuck, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
    That's unbelievable. Not that people did that but that no one invited me! ;)

    I heard about that and laughed because practically everyone is anonymous here yet some were scamming rep points. I mean if it gets you into college perhaps I can see it but come on now...
     
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  5. Electroman

    Electroman Well-Known Member

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    Spot on. Nothing wrong in pointing out AP2 is still not as good as AP1. But relentlessly derailing every thread, even on the topics that were created by those that loved AP2 and soliciting similar experiences. Their intention is to constantly keep the negative vibe afloat, to scare the new comers with their exaggerated claims.

    I can smell a troll from a distance. You can notice that they will only point out the edge case flaws and blow it up. They will get attracted like fleas to *sugar* to only those threads that talk about an issue. There were far worse naysayers than @oktane or @gautamn. I remember the suspension-gate thread. To me those were worse times with trolls running amok unchecked. I think it is much quieter now.
     
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  6. SocalMS

    SocalMS Member

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    Is the OP suggesting that the operators of this forum turn it into an 'EXTREME FANBOY' forum?

    I suppose the owner/operators can do what they wish.. it's their business.

    I for one would prefer to have a forum with all sides being expressed, honestly and CONSTRUCTIVELY.

    Everyone here is a fanboy to some extent.. either own a Tesla or looking to buy one.

    Some honest criticism is good for Tesla. There's nothing to fear, and if you don't like it, you don't have to read it.

    There's as much to dislike about blind Tesla adoration as there is to extreme Tesla distractors.
     
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  7. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    Oh, hey. Look at this thread. :D

    A few comments - first, I find it slightly humorous that the basis of this entire thread is being upset about complainers, yet it complains about them. ;)

    Green bars - I, like @Canuck, reached the maximum "visible" bars right before the site changed. A number of those bars were thanks to rep giving by power members like @bonnie, and so I agree with her comment above. It needed tweaking and this may be a better system. It also may not. Some of my hardest work and (in my opinion) most valuable information shared here garnered nearly nothing in likes. But add a little stank to a comment and I'm bathed in them. Not sure that's the way we want this to work, either.

    Dislikes - I have yet to give one out. I've been tempted, so sorely tempted. Believe me. But for me personally, I view it as cheating. If I disagree, I sure as hell better tell the poster and the other readers why I disagree. If it's not important enough to make a responsive post, then it's not worth the disagree rating. It's an emotional reaction and it adds nothing to discourse. That said, I don't think we should ignore members just by their propensity to hit that button. It may have a correlation with their value in this forum, but it's probably not the best barometer.

    I don't judge the quality of conversation here by the positivity or negativity exclusively. I judge it by how much insight or informational value a member posts overall, and how civil they treat others. There are posts from all of us that are self-serving. Maybe we want a reaction or confirmation of some sort: "check out this great photo of my X", for instance, or the converse "my X sucks and almost killed three rabbits yesterday!" But there are some members from whom every post appears to be some version of self satisfaction, with no concern to add to the community. For me, that's the way to tell whether it is someone who elevates this community or cuts it down.

    I should say, sometimes I'm wrong about a user - my memory tells me that a certain member posts one way, but I check their history and find that they have a rich variety of posts. For all of us, it's worth checking a member's other posts before making brash judgement. (Easy way to do so - click the member name under their avatar, then click the number that follows "Messages:" in the pop up.) We sometimes only see one side of a person based on the threads we frequent.

    So, how to fix it? Ignore button, starve the trolls, etc. are options often bandied about but infrequently used. My favorite method is fresh air and open space. Nothing recontextualizes the importance of @grumpysadclown's posts like a walk and some blue sky.
     
    • Like x 7
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  8. Canuck

    Canuck Well-Known Member

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    #68 Canuck, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
    It's about time you showed up. You'd think it's harvest time and you have a large garden to tend to, and a real life to lead.

    Yes, and next we'll see the complainers complaining about the complainers who complained about the original complainers. Stay tuned for that thread. You know you'll find me there so please don't be late.

    Yes, definitely better than posting after having a few beers on a bad day unless it was the old days and you were looking for rep points... ;)

    Maybe we should have a rule that after writing every post, but before posting, you have to re-read your post and if it is nice and kind you have to write at the end of every post:

    "Thank you kindly"

    which means that the post is appropriate to be posted.

    Or maybe it should be:

    "Take that, you dirty jackwagon"

    Too inside of a joke?
     
    • Funny x 7
  9. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

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    Agree with getting rid of Disagree.
    The "Report" option could be used for the really bad stuff. Anything else you can express your counterpoint. If that's too much hassle you obviously don't "disagree" that much. :)

    As for civility in high office, I'm hopeful that's a temporary aberration. Even from outside I still see a lot of normal, genuine folks over there on both sides.
     
  10. busaman

    busaman Member

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    ive been called a troll on here and im far from it i own a p85d and love it. but trust me when i say its not a perfect car it has many faults(i am an engineer so i feel i know what im talking about)
    criticism is not something some people on here like but they must accept it like everything else in life....
     
    • Disagree x 2
  11. Troy

    Troy Active Member

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    #71 Troy, Aug 28, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
    I love Tesla as a company. I like their mission and what they stand for. Tesla is excellent at engineering, innovation, and technology but not so great at marketing, advertising, and communication. For example, misleading battery sizes, misleading HP claims, misleading prices on the design studio, hidden launch mode counters and permanent HP reduction, hidden DC charge counters and supercharge tapering, dishonesty about fire sale discounts, shady sales practices at the end of quarters, the unnecessity of selling FSD before it was ready etc are just a few examples. Naturally, people complain about these things. That's a good thing because Tesla seems to listen and improve things even though they are a bit stubborn and slow.

    Here is what Tesla can do if they want to improve things:
    • Change the company culture. Stop misleading advertising to be a repeating problem.
    • Admit to mistakes and compensate people who were sold something Tesla couldn't quite deliver.
    • Make it easier to contact different departments within the company.
    • Collect online feedback. Make use of the fact that every customer has an online account with you.
    • Create welcome surprises instead of expectations.

    Here is what this forum can do to improve things:
    • Remove the disagree button.
    • People on my ignore list should not see or be able to downvote my messages
    • Allow self-moderated threads so people like @wk057 will return to the forum. This doesn't mean all threads should be like that. It just means people should be able to create threads like that if they wish to. Details
    • Make sure moderators continue to be neutral and don't support fanboyism. There has been some improvement on this over the years.

    Here is what forum members can do to improve things:
    • Realize that narrow-minded fanboyism (aka Tesla can do no wrong type of fanboyism) becomes online bullying when people report a bad experience they had with Tesla but then get attacked by fanboys.
    • Be better at detecting narrow-minded fanboyism. When Tesla is clearly in the wrong on some issue, narrow-minded fanboys usually attack or try to discredit the person reporting the issue. In addition, they try to derail the issue with lots of off-topic comments, jokes etc. Don't upvote these people. Don't go along with them. How do you decide if Tesla has done something wrong? Simple. If they have created a bad experience, they have done something wrong.
     
    • Like x 7
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  12. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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  13. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    Really? Because that's what it sounds like you are advocating. The echo chamber.

    Let me guess, you're a fascist? Any dissenting ideas should be suppressed? I have nothing personal against you. All ideas should be allowed and all posts should be allowed either positive or negative. Why live in fairyland?

    Believe it or not, I am actually somewhat a Tesla fan, even though I don't believe they are on the right path by lying to their fan base. I want them to turn into the company I thought they were when I purchased the car and Elon's book.
     
    • Disagree x 3
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  14. bonnie

    bonnie Oil is for sissies.

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    @Troy, I was going to note that while you listed what to do about excessive fanboyism, you forgot the paragraph about how to handle the bullies on the forum who accuse others of fanboyism just for expressing their opinion ... but I see @oktane beat me to it.

    :)
     
  15. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    You are brilliant, these are excellent ideas.
     
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  16. EinSV

    EinSV Active Member

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    The post (and poster, frankly) are a perfect illustration of the issue raised by this thread.
     
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  17. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    Slashdot was hilarious! Like you, I don't know how I stopped reading it or why about 15 years ago.
     
  18. oktane

    oktane Active Member

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    Damn I must be getting soft. I do appreciate the shout out, however. ;)
     
  19. T34ME

    T34ME Active Member

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    Rather than give @Troy post a 'disagree', I would like to highlight what I specifically disagree with in his post, which is the part I quoted above.

    This isn't a thread about what we like or don't like about Tesla. It is a thread about 'degradation' of the community (whether correct or not). If @Troy want's to reiterate what his perceived issues are with Tesla, he should have started a new thread rather than going off topic on this thread. Although I am a relatively new member of this Forum, I have seen similar arguments over and over again. If he had posted in a new thread, I would simply have put that thread on ignore because this topic has been discussed and dissected over and over again. I haven't seen anything new being presented. The point(s) has been made, which may or may not be true. What I find objectionable, is that this topic seems to keep popping up too frequently in unrelated threads.

    I know that @Troy has made many positive contributions to this Forum, but in this case, I wish he would have stayed on topic and the last part of his post, the part I didn't quote above, was on topic and brought up many points with which I 'agree'.
     
    • Like x 1
  20. bro1999

    bro1999 Active Member

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    That's the take I got.

    IMO, the hardcore fanboys (they know who they are) that try and convince everyone Tesla can do no wrong and chastise anyone daring to "taint" Tesla's reputation actually do more damage than the critics themselves. Of course there are the 100% trolls that deserve to get banned, but what OP seems to be suggesting is to get rid of anyone that doesn't tow the company line. We already got a guy in the WH doing that, last thing we need is for that practice to be applied here too.
     
    • Like x 1
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